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Brexit

Why don't Brexiteers value the economy or peace above leaving?

134 replies

newnameyawn · 14/03/2019 15:02

Although I firmly disagree, I can empathise with the reasons why some people voted Leave in the first referendum, but now we know more, WHY do they still support Brexit?

Every time the prospect of Brexit takes a tiny hit, the pound surges. We take a tiny step towards leaving and the pound crashes. Bank of England, CoC, and business all in agreement UK would be worse off outside EU. Why do Brexiteers want that?? I genuinely don't get why they would want their children and grand children to be worse off.

Also, why don't they care about peace in NI above leaving the EU? And why don't they care about the reasons the EU was formed after WW2 to prevent that ever happening again on the continent of Europe??

OP posts:
Gronky · 15/03/2019 07:55

As i said earlier, NATO collective defence (should Trump win a 2nd term and carry out his threats) may well go out the window and the UK could also follow suit.

You initially said:
the UK and as we also always support the USA

So, in the scenario of the UK 'supporting' the USA, the UK would increase NATO contributions, not decrease them in line with the US.

Can you point to where i said the EU was the primary reason we've not had war in Europe???

Apologies for misunderstanding, are you now confirming that your statement of:

Europe has rivalries that have been held back by trade and the political institutions of the EU

was a red herring?

all you ve done is twisted what i said or just lied

I'm sorry that you feel that addressing each point constitutes 'twisting and lying'.

Clavinova · 15/03/2019 08:00

I presume that people being so casual about the threat to the NI peace process are either too young to remember or they didn't live either in NI or the parts of GB that suffered the most from terrorist attacks.

(Actually the Irish question was my biggest pull to remain-the vote in NI wasn’t as clear cut to remain as people make out)

Indeed, 44% of the vote in Northern Ireland was to Leave the EU - which is a sizeable minority;
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36616830

Frankiestein402 · 15/03/2019 08:05

we don't think leaving the EU will damage the economy
Every economist does. Even minford expects destruction of agriculture and manufacturing sectors before eventual "benefits" three generations along.
That's three generations of our children that will suffer for a 'belief'

bellinisurge · 15/03/2019 08:08

@Clavinova , do you care about sizeable minorities now. 48% size minorities?

Windowsareforcheaters · 15/03/2019 08:09

The EU has been a major force for peace. This is indisputable.

We are experiencing the longest period of peace between nations that Western Europe has ever experienced. The EU was key in the GFA.

The EU is part of a wider range of geopolitical alliances but it is likely to become more important in European foreign policy as other large trading blocs develop.

It would be foolish and short sighted to leave. Sigh.

1tisILeClerc · 15/03/2019 08:19

{ Millyonthe Thu 14-Mar-19 22:30:36

In answer to your question OP, we don't think leaving the EU will damage the economy and we don't think it will cause a war.}

So far those promoting leave have no clue how to improve the UK economy over and above what we were doing while members of the EU.
With significant sections of industry moving out, the increase in tariffs and still no ideas about what the UK can do to replace the jobs lost. A predicted downturn between 2 and 9 percent, depending on how the UK leaves. Leavers have 2 weeks to come up with a plan.
Oh, hang on, they want an extension as 2 years of talking crap and they haven't thought of a plan.
Leavers need to start owning this fuck up and produce something tangible rather than the mythical unicorns.
If you voted for leave, start thinking, this shit is YOUR doing.

BeersTonight2000 · 15/03/2019 08:20

It would be foolish and short sighted to leave. Sigh

Maybe, but people vote for what they think is the best way forward. Difference between the two voters is simple

Leave voters think UK will be better off by leaving the EU

Remain voters think UK will be worse off by leaving the EU

bellinisurge · 15/03/2019 08:26

Blah blah blah Leave Bad/Good Remain Good/Bad. Are any of you prepared to accept WA? Or is the fact that a Remain voter like me is prepared to accept it reason enough to reject it?

BeersTonight2000 · 15/03/2019 08:28

If you voted for leave, start thinking, this shit is YOUR doing

How does that help UK to pull itself out from the current mess? Go far enough back in time and you can blame almost anything.

Was it David Cameron's fault for agreeing to a referendum? If so can we blame Cameron's mother for giving birth to him?

Was it UK's fault for joining the EU in the first place in 1975 when there was a referendum with a majority to join EU? If so lets blame the majority who voted to join EU.

Was it the fault of WWII for the EU coming into existence in the first place? If so lets blame the people who started WWII.

Could go on forever.

Brexit is a mess because MP's are pursuing their own goals and what is best way for UK as a country to move forward is pushed aside.

1tisILeClerc · 15/03/2019 08:39

{How does that help UK to pull itself out from the current mess?}
In itself it doesn't but I am thoroughly sick of the ignorant, unthinking Leave voters who happily spent the best part of 2 years crowing about how they have 'won' are now expecting others to fix the crap they have caused.
I have made as many preparations as I can, it has cost a fortune. I want the WA to be signed so that the UK can leave on 29 March. I wanted to remain which is how I voted but as a poor compromise I will accept the WA.
Now it is time for 'Leavers' to pull their weight because one thing is very sure, there is not enough Universal Credit to pay everyone to sit at home.
Notice the money being promised by the Chancellor. Where will that be coming from if new industries are not created?

BeersTonight2000 · 15/03/2019 08:54

Where will that be coming from if new industries are not created?

Higher taxes on those that work?
Increased borrowing?
Cuts to public services?

Curious to know what are the preparations you have made? Or do you not want to say?

Babdoc · 15/03/2019 08:58

It’s rather rude and patronising to think that all the people who voted for Brexit did so for ignorant, emotional, or racist reasons.
When we voted to join the EU, back in the 70’s, we simply voted to join a trading block, not a political union heading to tighter and tighter federalisation and loss of sovereignty.
Many people are unwilling to remain in an EU dominated by Germany and designed for their benefit, and are disgusted by the EU’s treatment of Greece.
They also take issue with the talk of apocalypse following our departure. Trade goes both ways - the U.K. is the biggest market for German cars, to take one example, and the Germans will not want their car industry destroyed by high tariffs.
There are 170 countries in the world who are NOT EU members, and they all manage to trade with each other perfectly successfully.
The biggest potential trading partners in the future are not the EU but rising economies like China, India, Brazil and Indonesia, plus the developing nations of Africa.
I voted to remain, but I fully respect the votes of leavers, and since seeing the intransigent attitude of the EU over the exit negotiations, I now think we are probably doing the right thing in going - and should walk out with no deal, rather than accept the “still tied in but with no say” deal currently being offered.

maddening · 15/03/2019 09:10

If put in wants brexit and has aided it's arrival then it is because he wants his ussr back, countries currently protected by eu and still rebuilding after being fucked by Russia for 40 years or so-and Russia did fuck them badly.

jasjas1973 · 15/03/2019 09:10

There are 170 countries in the world who are NOT EU members, and they all manage to trade with each other perfectly successfully

The Eu has FTA's with almost all major economies, which we lose when we leave.
Most countries have FTA's with their nearest neighbours.

We can trade very easily, on WTO rules with almost all countries outside of the EU right now.

European cars will continue to come into the UK, in the event of tariffs, they will make a UK specific model that will be available at a lower spec, in order to keep the price competitive or the full cream version, for those who don't care about a price rise.

We refused point blank to assist Greece.

As a remain voter, i'm surprised you don't realise any of this.

maddening · 15/03/2019 09:11

Put in = Putin

Clavinova · 15/03/2019 09:12

Clavinova,do you care about sizeable minorities now.48% size minorities?

I've always cared about sizeable minorities, but you appear to know less about the people of NI than you think you do. Were you aware that 44% voted Leave in NI - in spite of the GFA? Have you ever lived in Northern Ireland?

Every economist does.Even Minford expects destruction of agriculture and manufacturing sectors before eventual "benefits" three generations along.

Do you have a link to that?
Three generations along is 70 years plus.

I was under the impression that his previous comments were related to zero import tariffs being imposed across the board, but the recent Temporary Tariff Regime offers some protection;

From Bloomberg;
According to the Temporary Tariff Regime, 87 percent of goods by value will be eligible for tariff-free access, compared with 80 percent currently.The remainder, including some meat and dairy, as well as finished cars, will be subject to tariffs to protect domestic industry.

I’m sure there’s devil in the detail, but general approach of attempting to offset consumer price rises by ensuring as much continues to enter tariff free as possible while continuing to protect some vulnerable domestic industry & guard against preference erosion makes sense.
My take on the no-deal tariff schedule:on the face of it the UK’s approach seems broadly pragmatic and sensible.

Clavinova · 15/03/2019 09:14

Unexplained smiley - weird.

1tisILeClerc · 15/03/2019 09:24

You need to keep up with the plot.
{When we voted to join the EU, back in the 70’s, we simply voted to join a trading block, not a political union heading to tighter and tighter federalisation and loss of sovereignty.}
From the outset the element of federalisation was always there. It has developed over 40 years, as have many things.

{Many people are unwilling to remain in an EU dominated by Germany and designed for their benefit, and are disgusted by the EU’s treatment of Greece.}
maybe research facts rather than tabloid, anti EU headlines.

{They also take issue with the talk of apocalypse following our departure. Trade goes both ways}
Indeed but tariffs will massively impact the UK. This will put UK industry at a serious disadvantage.

{the U.K. is the biggest market for German cars, to take one example, and the Germans will not want their car industry destroyed by high tariffs.}
The European car industry is needing to rethink strategy. Europe is pretty well saturated for vehicles and growth is elsewhere. BMW for example are setting up in China in about 3 years, waiting for Chinese legislation to come through. Losing manufacturing in a (about to become more expensive due to tariffs) UK is a convenient way out for them. See also Nissan.

{There are 170 countries in the world who are NOT EU members, and they all manage to trade with each other perfectly successfully.}
Yes, using tariffs negotiated between themselves. It will taker years for the UK to try and muscle into existing deals.

{The biggest potential trading partners in the future are not the EU but rising economies like China, India, Brazil and Indonesia, plus the developing nations of Africa.}
Long term maybe, but many of these have already signed up agreements with China which is putting them into debt with China which will also tend to exclude 'new players'.

{I voted to remain, but I fully respect the votes of leavers, and since seeing the intransigent attitude of the EU over the exit negotiations,}

The EU are not intransigent. The UK trying to leave are wanting to take the 'furniture and fittings' (cake) which is contrary to the basic working principles of the EU. They are rightly sticking to their lines.
The fact that the UK are 'demanding' that they change to suit the UK who is the one that is leaving is leaving is preposterous. The problem is the UK, not the EU.

{ I now think we are probably doing the right thing in going - and should walk out with no deal, rather than accept the “still tied in but with no say” deal currently being offered.}
The WA is a LEAVE procedure that acknowledges that disentangling the UK from the EU will take at least 2 years. Since the UK enjoys the free trade and many other benefits of being a member of the EU during transition, it is right that the UK pays.

The departure will be a 'cliff edge' because so many things are being changed at once. An incident like a flood, earthquake or whatever is a sudden and devastating occurrence, but it is not changing laws and the fundamental basis of trade and negotiations of the whole country.

bellinisurge · 15/03/2019 09:29

Of course I knew the size of the Leave vote in NI @Clavinova . More distraction tactics. Are you prepared to accept WA or are you trotting out the same old same old?

Clavinova · 15/03/2019 09:49

bellinisurge
Of course I knew the size of the Leave vote in NI
Not sure why you are preaching on here then - you need to get yourself on a NI forum and preach to the 44% of Leavers over there.

Are you prepared to accept WA
Possibly - but it's not up to me.

TheElementsSong · 15/03/2019 09:55

bellini Don't you get it?

The minority of voters in NI and Scotland who voted Leave are a "sizeable minority" and it is grossly disrespectful to not acknowledge their desires in every post you make that mentions NI or Scotland.

The minority of voters over the whole country who voted to Remain are (1) chopped liver; (2) barely in existence at all, because the Leave result was overwhelming and the whole country has come together and wants Brexit; (3) nevertheless a powerful force of negativity which has caused Brexit fairies to die and unicorns to poof into dust, by sheer negative emotion bullyingly overcoming the positivity of the Leave majority.

bellinisurge · 15/03/2019 09:56

Preaching? I love the idea that me saying I'm prepared to accept WA for the sake of protecting GFA despite voting Remain = preaching. I'm the kind of Remain voter who is prepared to accept a managed Leave via WA. How the heck do you expect other people to accept Leave if that is your attitude?

Millyonthe · 15/03/2019 10:25

bellini I'm a Leave voter and I am also prepared to accept the WA for the sake of protecting the GFA.

I would have liked a no deal exit in many ways because I would have liked a simple free trade deal with the EU. But, it is clear that we can only leave the EU in a gradual and managed way with the consent and co-operation of Ireland.

We need to remain courteous and friendly with all our neighbours as we slowly diverge from the EU.

Unfortunately, Theresa May is such a poor communicator that she cannot sell the benefits of her WA to the country.

bellinisurge · 15/03/2019 10:28

@Millyonthe , you and I have disagreed on lots of things and probably always will, but I am grateful for your post here.
If we have to Leave, WA is how we do it.

Millyonthe · 15/03/2019 10:40

I think I have learnt more about May's WA from LeClerc and others on here than I have from the Tory party.
And I have a small export business so I do need to understand this stuff.

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