Why don't Brexiteers value the economy or peace above leaving?

[newnameyawn]

Although I firmly disagree, I can empathise with the reasons why some people voted Leave in the first referendum, but now we know more, WHY do they still support Brexit?

Every time the prospect of Brexit takes a tiny hit, the pound surges. We take a tiny step towards leaving and the pound crashes. Bank of England, CoC, and business all in agreement UK would be worse off outside EU. Why do Brexiteers want that?? I genuinely don't get why they would want their children and grand children to be worse off.

Also, why don't they care about peace in NI above leaving the EU? And why don't they care about the reasons the EU was formed after WW2 to prevent that ever happening again on the continent of Europe??

UK leaving EU weakens the institutions of europe and does scupper any form of EU defence force

Which institutions? The UK largely operates in tandem with European Defence forces rather than as part of them.

tone down US involvement in NATO, then given the swing to the right by the UK and as we also always support the USA

A swing to the right seems more likely in the event of a weak or no Brexit being delivered, as this would allow the far right to recruit more moderate right wing and undecided voters under a banner of delivering a true Brexit. The level of involvement in NATO is a red herring, given that 'supporting' the USA, in this context, would mean a greater contribution, not a lesser one.

we will standby if europe then becomes prey to a resurgent Russia, who won't directly invade but will interfere, either directly as they did in Georgia/Ukraine or via cyber warfare

Georgia/Ukraine aren't part of NATO and therefore don't enjoy the protection of collective defence. As for cyber warfare, ENISA already works with the NSA so there's a well established precedent for co-operating with non-EU nations.

Europe has rivalries that have been held back by trade and the political institutions of the EU,

I think you're minimising the role of the P5 (UNSC).

In 1988, this happened in NI

Non-State Actors, unless the IRA are members of the EU.

Is it a "very different issue" for the civilians caught up in the violence?

Appeal to emotion. If a relative of mine were involved in a derailment, I'd be very upset, regardless of whether it were caused by recklessness on the part of the driver or by the government removing the requirement to inspect tracks. However, the scale of the problem would be different and preventing further incidents would be handled in a different way.

Jesus Christ! how the fuck can any anyone draw a parallel to the Treaty of Versailles and being members of the EEC/EU

As I said:
"fueled by the perception that a group of European nations collectively forced unfair policies upon other European nations"

In answer to your question OP, we don't think leaving the EU will damage the economy and we don't think it will cause a war.

The institutions i was referring to are not military, Justice, educational, scientific

You asked for an example of how war could break out in europe, not whether Ukraine etc are NATO.

What has the UN SC got to do with anything? russia/china would veto anything any western country proposes.

The right wing are on the rise regardless of the out come brexit, "feeding" them has just made them stronger, so abandoning a far right project would be a good thing.

Perception or not, the treatment of Germany post WW1 is irrelevant to the EU or the brexit situation, even mentioning this is completely out of context.

A no-deal brexit could bring about a collapse of the GFA and the risks there of.

The institutions i was referring to are not military, Justice, educational, scientific

And weakening them weakens European military defence, how?

You asked for an example of how war could break out in europe, not whether Ukraine etc are NATO.

You gave examples of direct action in non-NATO countries, which would be hampered by the principle of collective defence.

What has the UN SC got to do with anything?

You were identifying the EU as a primary factor in preventing large scale conflicts in Europe.

The right wing are on the rise regardless of the out come brexit, "feeding" them has just made them stronger

Please point to a British far right party that has seen a significant increase in membership since the referendum.

Perception or not, the treatment of Germany post WW1 is irrelevant to the EU or the brexit situation, even mentioning this is completely out of context.

I would suggest that you read up on German political history between 1929 and 1931 inclusive to understand how important perceptions are to the rise of the far right.

A no-deal brexit could bring about a collapse of the GFA

That would be political suicide. A renegotiation is far more likely.

Because admitting you were fooled or wrong is extraordinarily difficult and it’s easier to protest until the bitter end. Especially

Ofitck, I believe the question was what Brexiteers want out of Brexit, not why some Remainers still want to halt the process rather than working to deliver the best Brexit possible.

Jokes aside, I recognise that everyone has their own opinion on what's best for Britain/the rest of the world and whether Remaining or Leaving would deliver this.

I suspect for most of them it is an emotional decision, not a practical one. I.e. would you stay with your millionaire husband for the money if you fell out of love?

No I would not.

Most people would divorce and live with less because we are ruled by out emotions and not practicalities

True. My divorce made me worse off financially, but better off mentally.

Brexiteers know we will be financially screwed, but they believe the UK can cope on its own, and it's 'better in the long run' to be free and single. No amount of logic or rational argument about the consequences can change that

I agree

"Regarding peace in Europe, it really does strike me as fantastic nonsense that us leaving the EU could cause military conflict" you've missed the issues around the Irish border then? Or the root causes of almost every other European war being fuelled by economic unrest & jingoism?

"I believe that's a separate question. If you disagree, would you kindly provide a rough outline of how you see a dispute over the NI border resulting in armed conflict between nations in Europe?" Jesus you don't think a resurgence of the troubles would be bad enough? Are you aware that the troubles didn't just affect Ireland? That there were bombings in the uk and elsewhere in Europe too?

"A military conflict between nations?" Yes! It was and could be again! Are you really unaware of the British and Irish army's involvement in the troubles too?!

And what do you think will happen if (as is entirely likely) British or European traders try to sidestep new barriers at ports etc? You think that will go peacefully?

"Non-State Actors, unless the IRA are members of the EU." And why do you think they targeted STATE soldiers? Because the state wasn't involved?!

Think you need to read some a LOT of at least British history - even just the 20th century would mean you know more than you apparently do now.

And that's "just" Ireland.

Regarding your comments on WWII again shockingly uninformed. Seriously read up on how hitler was able to gain power, why Mussolini was...the ideologies & fears hitler used to get support are frighteningly similar to the "reasons" for brexit.

Churchill recognised the value of a united Europe.

The rest of the world is laughing, stunned and "smh" (you don't have to take my word for it Google "worldwide response to brexit" and speak to people living in countries outside Europe - they're utterly bewildered why we're doing something so obviously self destructive)

"The right wing are on the rise regardless of the out come brexit, "feeding" them has just made them stronger, so abandoning a far right project would be a good thing." This!

It needs cut off at the knees not pandered to!

"And weakening them weakens European military defence, how?" Because it's all interrelated, they don't exist in isolation. Everything is cogs in a machine. You don't just arbitrarily remove a cog and expect the machine to continue working regardless!

I presume that people being so casual about the threat to the NI peace process are either too young to remember or they didn't live either in NI or the parts of GB that suffered the most from terrorist attacks.
If it wasn't so sick it would be almost touching that people think the GFA can be so casually disregarded.
Just so you know The Manchester Bomb wasn't a new concept after the dreadful events at the Arianne Grande concert.
I was caught up in two previous Manchester Bomb events several years apart.

I am old enough to have lived through IRA threats to London. The difference with this conflict (from a hypothetical unstable Europe) is that the divisions are religious as well as political.

Just this morning someone commented on a Facebook post that once we are out of the EU we will be able to trade with New Zealand, Canada and Australia again and our sheep won't be subject to halal slaughter. How can anyone be so ignorant? We don't even use the full, tariff free quota of New Zealand lamb.

So we have to stay in the EU because the IRA will get upset if we don’t. We mustn’t upset the terrorists.

(Actually the Irish question was my biggest pull to remain - the vote in NI wasn’t as clear cut to remain as people make out)

Yes, just like "we mustn't upset DUP and their UVF pals".
It's complicated. Which is why WA allows us to leave AND comply with WA.
Pouting about it doesn't make it go away.

"And comply with GFA"

If you think we can't leave, you haven't been paying attention. We CAN leave. On 29 March 2019. If we support WA.

Are you really unaware of the British and Irish army's involvement in the troubles too?!

That really doesn't constitute active warfare between nations. Just as the skirmishes between Irish forces and Allied/Axis forces didn't constitute their playing an active role in WWII.

If it wasn't so sick it would be almost touching that people think the GFA can be so casually disregarded.

I don't believe anyone here, other than fear stoking Remainers, have claimed it could be casually disregarded. Frankly, I find the exploitation of the suffering of all involved in The Troubles in order to push an agenda rather distasteful.

How old are you Gronky.? And you think pandering to the DUP is ok?

How old are you Gronky.?
Old enough to just about remember watching Apollo 11 live, why do you ask?

And you think pandering to the DUP is ok?
I understand the necessity, just as I understood the necessity of pandering to the Liberal Democrats when they were in coalition.

Farage successfully closed down discussion of the border with similar comments. And so the NI issue apparently is a huge surprise to Leave voters who didn't think about it. What with Farage successfully shutting down discussion.
Support WA to Leave.
Or do you just like flouncing and playing the victim?

Do you understand that BOTH sides of the troubles which would include people like the dup acted in ways that endangered and lead to the killing and maiming of innocents? I can only assume you don't or else why support pandering to one side and not the other?

I suspect you have been influenced by the heavily biased uk media of that time.

Google UVF to find out the slimy underbelly of the DUP.
Like the IRA is the slimy underbelly of Sinn Fein.
GFA was a miracle that put a lid on that.

Which comments?

Gronky - Rise of the right wing has little to do with party membership of the EDL etc & of course the Tory party has gone further in some respects than Afd/ FN or look at the Republican party in the US?

Of course NZ shows us that the far right wing do not need excuses to fuel their murderous extremism.

As i said earlier, NATO collective defence (should Trump win a 2nd term and carry out his threats) may well go out the window and the UK could also follow suit.

Can you point to where i said the EU was the primary reason we've not had war in Europe???

You asked for a scenario how war "could" break out in europe, as a result of UK leaving the EU, weakening the EU, becoming isolationist, turning toward the USA and Russian involvement..... all you ve done is twisted what i said or just lied.

I can only assume you don't or else why support pandering to one side and not the other?

How does 'understand the necessity' turn into 'support' in your mind?

If you don't support WA but want to leave, you are supporting ERG who are taking their cue from DUP (mainly because it suits them). Labour? Fuck knows but Corbyn is a useless twat so I don't care about him or his minions.