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Brexit

Westminstenders: And I neeeedddd moreeeee timeeeeee!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2019 12:57

We need Time!
Its the one thing we don't have.

Todays vote is on extending a50.

To the displeasure of leavers, Bercow has selected amendments:

e) Corbyn Amendment
demands the government should “provide parliamentary time for this house to find a majority for a different approach”.

h) Wollaston Amendment
cross party amendment requesting to extend to allow the ability to legislate for a PV

i) Benn Amendment
cross party backbenchers take over parliamentary time from 20th March to find a majority way forward which gives justification for an extension

j) Bryant Amendment
prevents meaningful vote III

After yesterday's vote, May is left with effectively four options:

1) Pass the WA and go for a short technical extension.
An extension would have numbers in the HoC, but passing the WA is a struggle and it's reliant on the EU granting extension which is probably viable in this circumstances.

2) Be defeated getting the WA through and be forced into asking for a long extension as a result. This would include EP elections.
This option is politically toxic to the tories and its unlikely a long extension would pass the HoC. The EU would still need a justification for a long extension - a PV would be the natural option - but not clear if that could pass the HoC. Ditto passing legislation for EP elections. Whole scenario is unlikely

3) Be forced to revoke
Tory party big red button of self destruct

4) Actively decide to pursue an illegal no deal Brexit
Let's not think of the ramification

Going through this at speed, my initial reactions to this are:

If e) passes it doesn't really make much difference to May's choices here, but Labour might have more say.

If h) passes it might make 2) more likely

If i) passes it might open up alternative options

If j) passes we might have a real issue if its the only amendment that passes - it would leave a straight choice of Revoke or No Deal UNLESS i) passes as well.

But there might be other things that are not hitting me right in the face now.

As it stands, Hard Line Brexiteers were earlier today making noises that they would now support the WA - including whispers that this would include the DUP who would be likely to set off a chain reaction of support.

However which (if any) amendments pass today could well affect whether thats even a possibility.

As a result this vote needs to carry the health warning 'Be Careful what you wish for'. What you would LIKE might be extremely high risk and might jeapordise the main vote and the chances of an extension at all.

So whilst Leavers might be unhappy about the choices, it might well ultimately work best for No Dealers. Or it could be a gift for Remainers. Bercow's selections are not necessarily biased for this reason. He does not know the outcome here. If anything it looks like he's actually trying to put more options on the table for the house, rather than allow May to dictate to the house. Which is exactly what he should be doing. He's given parliament the power.

I suspect we will not fully understand what is going on tonight EVEN MORE than last night. And it will take a short while for everyone to calibrate what the eventual result actually is going to mean.

THIS is the most important vote yet. And it has the potential its going to end up m-e-s-s-y.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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PigeonofDoom · 15/03/2019 11:01

Got a completely wet reply from IPSO so the gov website is the way to go.
The ICO has more clout than the others you list as they can and do impose significant fines. Not sure how much they act on small scale data protection breaches, however. Big ones, then yes they do. We certainly take them seriously at work!

icannotremember · 15/03/2019 11:01

I've reported the S*n and the Mail on the gov website.

What a bloody world :(

PigeonofDoom · 15/03/2019 11:03

They certainly show the shooter walking in with his gun. Didn’t watch any further, but it’s propaganda, they shouldn’t show any of it IMO.

DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 11:09

The ICO has more clout than the others you list as they can and do impose significant fines.

I'll take notice when the victims of data breaches get compensation ... it's of less interest to me that the perpetrators get a slapped wrist and a free pass to carry on (with the caveat that it seems the ICO must have had their hand down their pants recently and found some round objects. Let's see if they can use them ....)

DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 11:09

They certainly show the shooter walking in with his gun. Didn’t watch any further, but it’s propaganda, they shouldn’t show any of it IMO.

Compare and contrast with the voices of Sinn Fein having to be dubbed in the 80s ...

PigeonofDoom · 15/03/2019 11:11

Although the jokes about that on Derry Girls did make me laugh Grin Such a weird decision as he hardly has the most sonoric of voices.

PigeonofDoom · 15/03/2019 11:13

Thing is though, those big fines (and they will be bigger post GDPR) make businesses sit up and take notice so it does affect practice on the ground. Agree that it’s not much use for the people affected though.

NoWordForFluffy · 15/03/2019 11:21

I always thought the dubbing was a weird decision as what does it matter who's voicing the words if we're allowed to hear them anyway? Surely it's the content which may be the problem, not whose voice is expressing it?!

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2019 11:23

Michael Crick @michaellcrick
On social media companies posting live-stream video of Christchurch massacre, Downing Street spokeswoman says: “there should be no safe spaces for terrorists to share their extreme views.... all [media] companies need to act quickly to remove terrorist content.”

And by “all companies” the spokeswoman made clear that includes British newspapers and their websites

Well do something then. Don't just use words. It's meaningless and pointless without action.

OP posts:
PigeonofDoom · 15/03/2019 11:33

Quite Red. It’s not as if it’s some obscure Russian website, these are massive media companies!
Incidentally, this is why I don’t want a people’s vote- the media would just spin the same lies as last time with no oversight.

FishesaPlenty · 15/03/2019 11:35

I always thought the dubbing was a weird decision as what does it matter who's voicing the words if we're allowed to hear them anyway?

As I remember it the 'decision' was simply to ban the voices of SF (etc.) representatives being broadcast in the UK. It was the broadcasters who decided to introduce the dubbing.

SusanWalker · 15/03/2019 11:36

So sad today. The whole world seems to be going to shit.

As a more or less Cornish person can I just apologise for both Scott Mann and Steve Baker.

I once worked with an Australian who said some really racist things about far Eastern immigration into Australia. There was a mindset that white European immigration was fine, but not others. She couldn't even see how racist she was being when it was pointed out to her. I'm not saying all Australians are racist obviously.

NoWordForFluffy · 15/03/2019 11:44

So a loophole? I was only a child so never knew the ins and outs.

67chevvyimpala · 15/03/2019 11:45

I'm not watching. I just can't.

My thoughts and my prayers are with those who have died and their families and their wider community.

I'm just going to koko. Doing what I can.

It's not enough. Of course it isn't.

But I am donating to the victims fund, and tomorrow I am taking boxes of San pro to a local red box project.

I am concentrating on what I can do rather than feeling so totally, totally impotent to stem the rising tide of hatred and venality I see everywhere around me.

Love to you all x

MTGGirl · 15/03/2019 12:00

"........It’s not as if it’s some obscure Russian website"
You have no idea how many news outlets are being funded by russia. Some through holding companies, some you only know about if you read the extreme small print on the 234th page. I recently investigated a few. For example the Evening Standard is funded by a russian. This newspaper is free to pick up. It can reach commuters easily. It reaches millions potentially. The masses commute. By definition the masses (as a group) are easily influenced. Without being a snob, let's face it: the wealthy don't commute. The intelligent, scholarly don't read the evening standard. Put 2 and 2 together.
The scary thing is that almost all news outlets look credible, have a nice facade, and ppl won't look into the company structure. In the western world ppl became used to independent news outlets, forgot to think and just believe.
And with social media on the rise it is becoming easier and easier to manipulate ppls views.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 15/03/2019 12:07

"I always thought the dubbing was a weird decision as what does it matter who's voicing the words if we're allowed to hear them anyway? Surely it's the content which may be the problem, not whose voice is expressing it?!"

I was wondering if this was because they were scared of an almost hypnotic affect? You know how some people make rousing speeches with compassion and most people feel moved? I think Farage has been said to do the same when you see him live. Also it says a lot that Leave used and paid Paul McKenna to deliver their mantras IMO.

NoWordForFluffy · 15/03/2019 12:13

There may be something in that, though Gerry Adams' voice isn't hypnotic in any way!

1tisILeClerc · 15/03/2019 12:16

MTGGirl
{Put 2 and 2 together. }
Very good points, the world is so busy and fast, getting to the fine print is near impossible.
I would be cautious about making this 2+2 conclusion as with most things having am initial 'report' that is true but then veering off into lies and possible manipulation is one of the hallmarks of Brexit and most other discussions.
Having sufficient background knowledge, and other sources of reference to back it up is essential.
As has been commented on these threads repeatedly, Patrick Minfords economics theories aren't untrue, but the important thing is that once the brilliant (for the people) ideas of zero tariffs get accepted, the following bad news towards the end of the report that domestic producers will go out of business somehow fails to be mentioned.

DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 12:19

My recollection is that the dubbing was a media exercise to show up the law as stupid and ineffective as well as a nasty example of political censorship. Bearing in mind Sinn Fein were (and remain) a legitimate political party.

I can't remember how it ended, but I'm pretty sure one of the ways it was undermined was to have actors also dubbing in the voices of any government spokespeople. There was also a note at the beginning of any news segments that "this report has been edited to comply with the current reporting restrictions"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988%E2%80%9394_British_broadcasting_voice_restrictions

Ultimately trying to silence your opponents only gives them a gravitas they are unlikely to achieve if left alone.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2019 12:20

If a national newspaper, say the Guardian, live-streamed an IS mass-murder in NZ, I'd expect them to be prosecuted

There should be the same rules for mass murder of whatever type, whether committed by white supremacist fascists or Islamofascists

All dead victims of fascism deserve equal respect and their families deserve equal protection from seeing the gloating murderers of their loved ones on masss media

TalkinPaece · 15/03/2019 12:20

Here is the link to re report the Daily Mail and the Sun
www.report-terrorist-material.homeoffice.gov.uk/report
it takes seconds

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2019 12:23

Macron is a centrist, who beat the far left & far right in an election
Hence why he is such a hate figure for the far right

Many of the non-violent hard right Brexiters also express - verbally / online - their hatred & contempt for centrists and anyone not on the hard right, or oddly on the hard left

They are revolutionaries who want to destroy the current social consensus on e.g. protecting the rights of minorities and disabled

MTGGirl · 15/03/2019 12:26

@1tisILeClerc Very true point. Putting 2+2 together is only possible with sufficient information and knowledge. The masses don't and will never have these (for multiple reasons, not just because they don't want to). But where does this leave us? As a society we are reliant on democracy, which is reliant on individuals being capable of making thought out and knowledgeable decisions. The first few sentences make the second part an oxymoron.
This whole shit we are in proves that. Ppl were told lies, manipulated with emotional messages. Then came the facts, but even those were skewed as they were/are taken out of context. Someone working 9-5 and having a life won't take the time to look for context. So the logical conclusion is that they need others (who's full time job is to do this) to put 2+2 together. But we find more and more that those who should be doing this are not impartial. Leaving us with a nice Catch-22.
I really don't know how we can move forward as a society, as a human race. The world around us is devolving (look to eastern europe, turkey, the arab world, us,....) and I can only hope that minds greater than mine are trying to figure out solutions and options.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2019 12:26

I've been impressed by Jacinda Ardern, ever since she became PM
Her statement was excellent in lining up NZ firmly against the fascists and in support of tolerance

Tanith · 15/03/2019 12:32

“Scott Mann, MP for North Cornwall, said: “Every knife sold in the UK should have a GPS tracker fitted in the handle.””

Mmm! They’ll be drawing lots for the privilege of patting down Marcus Wareing and Michel Roux Jr. Grin