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Brexit

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 10:01

May went to Strasbourg to improve the WA. She claimed to have won 'legally binding' assurances which mean we can't be trapped in the backstop.

Despite the claim of 'legally binding' it seems that this isn't true. It reduces the risk of being trapped but does not eliminate it.

The whole thing is just political theatre designed to give Brexiteers the opportunity to climb down and support May's deal. Whether that will happen remains to seen.

The right wing press has largely been supportive of May this morning but the ERG were scathing last night which doesn't bode well.

For May to pass the deal she needs the DUP to effectively trigger dominoes of support. If she fails to get that it's highly unlikely it will pass.

In order to pass the deal May needs an extra 116 votes compared to last time. This breaks down to roughly 10 DUP, 65 of the ERG, 4 Independents (Field/Hermon /Hopkins/Austin) and 40 Labour.

The Labour MPs won't go for it unless the numbers look tight and the DUP are on board.

We should get a feel for how things are going as the day goes on. I expect more negative comments on it to be expressed as the day goes on.

We might yet see some amendments and curveball thrown into the mix too. However none of those tabled so far this morning look likely to pass (Labour are yet to table anything)

The Cabinet meets at 9.30am. This will give us an idea of how it's played out there.

At 11.15am Barclay faces the Brexit select committee so some more scrutiny there.

The crucial moment is early afternoon before as May opens the debate on the Meaningful Vote. It is expected there will be an Urgent Question tabled to Cox the Attorney General to assess whether his legal advice that the backstop could be a trap, has changed. This is where thing will come into focus and we will get a good idea of whether the deal will pass or how heavy the defeat will be. How heavy it is, is important.

Word is that Cox said no to the validity of May’s 'legally binding assurances' last night and has been pretty much been sent away to 'think about it with a team of lawyers'. Cox has replied this is "Bollocks". But you do have to wonder if this is what May did in the Home Office with her ridiculous court cases and the A50 case. None of which went well for her in court in the end. However Cox did tell The Mail yesterday he would only change his legal advice if the risk of being trapped was 'eliminated' not merely reduced.

If its going badly a No10 damage limitation exercise will be in full swing by about 4pm.

If The Withdrawal Agreement fails by a small amount May might be able to try again. If it fails by a lot we really are into political chaos. May's position might be untenable if the Cabinet withdraw their support. If May stays that's not necessarily going to stave off even greater crisis.

Theresa May looks likely to go for an extension until 23rd May. The EU have more or less agreed to this. But this might be too short to get an alternative plan on the table. And May would be unlikely to be the person to do this anyway as it requires a huge uturn. The 23rd May date is crucial - if the UK doesn't make contingency plans to take part in European Elections its a cliff edge. A deadline of 23rd May is also too short for another referendum.

The only way we get a 2nd ref is to take the option of a longer extension which requires us to take part in European elections, and this is politically unpalatable to many Tories as it endangers Brexit completely.

This is what ERGers need to weigh up. Are they really committed to no deal. If they are not then the WA is perhaps the only way to stop no deal AND the possibility of no brexit.

However the chances of the legislation for European elections and a long extension getting through the Commons looks extremely unlikely too. But who knows where we will be come the end of April.

Thus if the WA fails then the chances of No Deal sky rocket, even if no deal is blocked by Parliament tomorrow. Unless those same MPs are prepared to vote for EP elections further down the line if need be. This might be the only way to truly block no deal. Has this dawned on Tory moderates? And that's what remain moderates and Labour MPs need to weigh up. I don't think the penny has dropped with many. Yet.

The trouble is that the WA problem is really with hardline ERG Tories not moderates nor Labour anyway.

Voting starts at 7pm.

OP posts:
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TalkinPaece · 12/03/2019 16:02

Pretty sure she could not revoke during purdah after parliament is dissolved
then again her view of the law is pretty fluid

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 16:04

Pretty sure she could not revoke during purdah after parliament is dissolved

Parliament may have disappeared, but the Government (including PM) are still in power ...

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 16:05

May's master plan - if she had one - could have been thwarted by the lack of business / financial disaster so far, to help pressure MPs
i.e. if she was expecting the pound to be crashing and far more businesses to cut jobs or pull out

Businesses may just be aiming to get the most out of their sunk costs - and of course that No Deal doesn't happen
I can't figure out the relative calm in the financial markets, considering the risks

They may all have inside info, or may just be assuming No Deal would never be allowed.
Not as cynical as some of us here

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 16:06

The PM retains her executive power when Parliament is dissolved
The govt goes on, ministers stay in office too, iirc

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 16:07

Alex Wickham @alexwickham
ERG meeting at 5pm-ish, usual pre-vote meeting to decide how to vote. But despite earlier statement, they haven't yet decided what they're going to do... amid speculation that many want to climb down

Another ERG wag says 5pm meeting is not to decide how to vote, it's to decide how to split

Ooooo

OP posts:
ElenadeClermont · 12/03/2019 16:07

Ethically she would have to revoke before purdah to give free hand to the new administration. GE would then be 2nd referendum.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 16:08

So I'm pretty sure she could request an extension - avoiding automatic No Deal is a good reason !
and could - but wouldn't - Revoke

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 16:09

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/12/erg-theresa-may-deal-legal-29-march-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw
To my ERG colleagues, I urge you to hold your nose and support May’s deal
Ben Bradley
Legal advice is not everything – this deal is good enough to honour a 29 March Brexit, so we must vote for it

OP posts:
GeistohneGrenzen · 12/03/2019 16:09

I'd like to think Brenda does a good line in "Really?" (With raised eyebrow). Should puncture anyone's ego.

I know she does a really good slitty-eyed expression accompanied by a slow turn of the head about 90' Grin

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 16:10

I'm wondering now if even a GE would be enough to secure an extension.

Tusks comments (yes, I know it was a while ago, but this is how grown ups work) were clear that the view of the UK revoking had all but gone in Brussels.

With that in mind, there would be a risk of an extension predicated on a UK General Election that returned pretty much the same shower of shits as we have now, and the whole pas de deux starts again ....

I'm suspecting that's the thinking behind Mays rather obtuse comments - the ball has landed firmly and finally in the UKs court. We either play, or quit. There's no return serve.

MPs are really going to have to ask themselves if their careers constituents really want Brexit as bad as they say they do.

67chevvyimpala · 12/03/2019 16:11

Its gonna squeak through isn't it?

Ffs.

Peregrina · 12/03/2019 16:12

I know that the Greens are going ahead choosing EU candidates just in case. Some think that all the elections will be delayed until 23rd May.
I don't know if that is legally possible with Local Elections.

Ruth Davidson would have to find a Westminster seat - although I would expect it to be for a Scottish Constituency.

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 16:14

So I'm pretty sure she could request an extension - avoiding automatic No Deal is a good reason !

I disagree - strongly Grin.

The automatic no deal is entirely of the UK choosing and doing. It's what the UK knew would happen when A50 was triggered (despite the warnings) and it's what musty happen in the absence of a withdrawal agreement.

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 16:15

Legal advice is not everything – this deal is good enough to honour a 29 March Brexit, so we must vote for it

Why didn't they vote for it last time - or the time before that then ?

prettybird · 12/03/2019 16:15

Have to say that Nicky Morgan, who recently had increased my opinion of her, has plummeted back down again as her viewpoint is now so internally inconsistent Confused

Disparaging the SNP for continuing to fight for what they consider to be the best for their country and their constituents and the significant majority of the Scottish electorate who voted to Remain Hmm

MissMalice · 12/03/2019 16:15

PMK

FiddleFaddleDingDong · 12/03/2019 16:17

.

ContinuityError · 12/03/2019 16:17

TalkinPaece

Lots of councils and unitary authorities are on vastly different election cycles - no elections this year for Cornwall, County Durham, Isle of Wight, Northumberland, Shropshire, Wiltshire, Bristol, Warrington, Doncaster, Rotherham, Birmingham, Gloucester, Stroud, Adur, Cheltenham, Fareham, Gosport, Hastings, Nuneaton and Bedworth, Oxford, any of the London Boroughs or County Councils, Isles of Scilly or City of London. Others will only elect a third of members this year.

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 16:17

The existential problem for the ERG, is their importance pretty much falls away if the WA is passed. They will have "lost" and their influence seriously diminished. Bearing in mind the WA is merely a prelude to years of painstakingly boring (and thus of no interest to the average Brexit voter) minutia.

"Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven."

Cailleach1 · 12/03/2019 16:19

The DUP got dosh for their votes. Do they have to give back/forfeit the bundle now?

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 16:21

The DUP got dosh for their votes. Do they have to give back/forfeit the bundle now?

I think the dosh went to DUP constituencies in Northern Ireland.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 16:22

pretty I've actually been wondering what the Whips have on Nicky Morgan Hmm

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 12/03/2019 16:23

Have to say that Nicky Morgan, who recently had increased my opinion of her, has plummeted back down again as her viewpoint is now so internally inconsistent

Yep. She’s reverted to Nicky Morgan, Education Secretary. The post Education Secretary backbench version was much better.

BiglyBadgers · 12/03/2019 16:23

I still think it's not going through. It'll be closer but it would require 116 MPs to change their minds based on absolutely nothing really having changed. It might happen but I'm not seeing it quite yet.

I might change my mind after the ERG meeting but I'm not expecting enough of a shift from them to make the difference. Some will split, but I suspect many are to pigheaded. Though I'm not sure what difference it would make if they abstained.

I haven't heard anything much from Labour...I guess some labour rebels might help May out, but again I'm not seeing that at the moment.

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 16:25

I haven't heard anything much from Labour...I guess some labour rebels might help May out, but again I'm not seeing that at the moment.

My MP won't vote for it.

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