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Brexit

Westminstenders: Here we go again

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2019 18:39

Vote 12th March: Meaningful Vote on the Withdrawal Agreement

Vote 13th March: If WA fails, vote on No Deal

Vote 14th March: If WA fails, vote on A50 extension

Not much more to add at this stage that's not repeating what's been said before.

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OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/03/2019 22:04

How can either side be happy with this?

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2019 22:04

Tatiana We will soon see how the EU thinks

imo, Remainers are in a bubble, not as bad as Leavers, but still a bubble
The EU is moving on

AnotherDIYSunday · 11/03/2019 22:04

Wow, what a bitchy post, Tatiana. You're not the only person who speaks several languages, has friends all over Europe and reads a variety of international newspapers, BTW.

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2019 22:05

Parly @ parlyapp
Two new documents tonight- a joint legally binding instrument and protocol on Northern Ireland and a joint statement to supplement the political declaration says @DLidington

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TatianaLarina · 11/03/2019 22:08

Business does not direct the negotiations though. That is the mistake the Leavers made - thinking that German car industry would ensure we got a favourable Brexit Deal.

They can lobby but at the end of the day the decisions are made by the EU.

Last minute concessions is precisely what we don’t want, if you’re referring to the events of this evening.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/03/2019 22:08

So what do we think?

Lidngton has gone all Brexiteerish once again.

SwedishEdith · 11/03/2019 22:09

Alexander Clarkson
‏*@APHClarkson*

Can-kicking to December 2020. If nothing is finalised by then, can gets kicked into the transition extension that follows

Keep in mind, can-kicking often works

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2019 22:09

Liddington claims the government has “secured legally binding changes that strengthen and improve the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration”.
< v small changes >

1tisILeClerc · 11/03/2019 22:11

TatianaLarina
That is a very unpleasant thing to be saying on an internet 'chat' forum to BCF.
I could phone my friend whose father is in contact with the inner circle of the EU as he was former secretary General, for the 'lowdown' but I won't.

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2019 22:11

Tony CONNELLY @ tconnellyrte
Here goes:
Barnier's offer on Fri that "best endeavours" could be actionable by the UK at independent arbitration level appears to have unblocked things. ie, the offer of a Joint Interpretative Statement which commits both sides to best endeavours/good faith + is legally binding

So you have the beefed up "best endeavours" part - to remind people, that's about the UK's demand that the EU is acting in good faith to replace the backstop with a fully fledged FTA / alternative arrangements / technology etc...

Then, as I understand it, you will have language tonight on how the Independent Arbitration panel can use the best endeavours clause as evidence to support a future UK complaint that the EU is not acting in good faith etc.

The third, and trickiest part, is a Unilateral Declaration by the UK.

^This is complex, so bear with me.
As I understand it, the UK wants to declare that it will be able to walk away if the trade talks are dragging on, the transition runs out + the backstop is upon us, and it's not true to its purpose because it's not meant to be permanent etc etc^

This is the nub of the difficulty in tonight's talks. The idea of a unilateral interpretation of the backstop. If the UK invokes it, obviously at that point the EU will put forward a counter argument that the backstop is needed PRECISELY because the trade talks are stuck etc

The UK's capacity to have a unilateral interpretation could, however, be nodded through tonight as a principle the EU can concede, but if the reasons for the UK walking away cut across the WA, then all sorts of EU red flags will go up...

The EU would insist then on the issue going to the arbitration panel. But that would no longer make it a "unilateral interpretation", which is, of course, the conundrum.

The EU, meanwhile, sees the issue in three ways: 1. It's precisely because the talks break down that you need the backstop 2. The issue is intensely political: what if Corbyn is PM, and he goes for a customs union so part of the reason for the backstop falls away?

3. The UK has a shared responsibility to make this work.

This is my understanding of the issues under discussion. Obviously the Irish side have been briefed, hence the cabinet meeting earlier. I'll file more stuff as I get it.

David Allen Green @davidallengreen
Utter flapdoodle.

No point in such a "unilateral declaration" - cannot be a meaningful aid to either interpretation or construction of an any agreed provision or instrument.

Logically mad.

And David Allen Green on Liddington statement

David Allen Green*@davidallengreen*
Twaddle.

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RedToothBrush · 11/03/2019 22:12

Alex Wickham@alexwickham
UK seems to have failed to convince the EU it should be able to make a unilateral statement (irony there)

Brexiteers sought a time limit or a unilateral break clause to the backstop. If the ERG vote for a deal based on that tomorrow it would be a significant Brexiteer climbdown

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TatianaLarina · 11/03/2019 22:13

You’re not the only person who speaks several languages, has friends all over Europe and reads a variety of international newspapers, BTW.

Quite. Which I would haven thought was abundantly clear from the diversity on this thread. I’m sick of Remainers being patronised by BCF because she’s afraid and wants to capitulate on the WA.

Sostenueto · 11/03/2019 22:13

Kier Starmer now saying there is no significant change. The WA hasn't been changed nor political agreement.

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2019 22:14

David Allen Green@davidallengreen
A side letter is not by itself legally binding.

A best endeavours clause is legally pointless, let alone not binding.

A unilateral interpretation of an agreed text cannot logically be legally binding.

This is bullshit, please do not fall for the magic words "legally binding".

Keir Starmer just seeming to make the same point in the HoC.

No one seems fooled.

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TokyoSushi · 11/03/2019 22:16

'Nothing has changed' then? We're just going to pretend that it has?

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2019 22:16

The mistake Leavers made about the German car industry and indistries in other countries
is that damaging the Single market would cost them more than damaging UK trade

German business told the govt repeatedly to prioritise the Single market above all else

This time, they have been saying that a delayed No Deal would cost them more
So have businesses in other countries

Littlespaces · 11/03/2019 22:20

Laura Kuennsberg

"If test for this is whether Attorney General will change legal advice - which some ministers believe - govt might have trouble - hearing tonight (and sure not the only one) that Cox is ‘agonising’"

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2019 22:21

I’m sick of Remainers being patronised by BCF because she’s afraid and wants to capitulate on the WA.

So you want No Deal? If you want to carry on with brinkmanship - in the same way as May - that's what you are risking. Just because you are too stubborn to be pragmatic and realise the low chance of your stubbornness being successful. This stubborness raises the chances of No Deal.

Let me stress here. I DO NOT want the WA. However given the fuckwittery of the HoC which has not successfully managed to put a realistic alternative forward which is viable and likely to pass the HoC (and I include remain in that), the choices still are May's Deal or No Deal.

Talk of alternatives are remain unicorns, and political unicorns are dangerous regardless of who they belong to.

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PestyMachtubernahme · 11/03/2019 22:22

May, Junker press conference soon
t.co/Wc8xm0bHTz

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2019 22:22

Tatian I'm not patronising.
I'm exasperated at UK Remainers claiming things which just don't agree with what is being said in Germany
Reaminers seem to share the Leavers belief that the EU will do what we want

No Deal is regarded as the most likely outcome here
Renegotiation is not taken seriously

I'm not personally afraid, as my circumstances are pretty good.
I am frightened at what the prospect of No Deal would do to the UK
It's my country

TatianaLarina · 11/03/2019 22:22

Tant Pis LeClerc

Anyway, back to business as usual re the WA, as I suspected there’s nothing much they could change.

Littlespaces · 11/03/2019 22:22

@DanielFerrie
"There will be a joint press conference by @JunckerEU and @theresamay in next few mins in @EuroparlEN, Strasbourg #Brexit"

Follow live here 👇

europa.eu/!CB78NK

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2019 22:22

James Forsyth @jgforsyth
IDS suggests delaying meaningful vote to Wednesday to give Commons time to question AG and scrutinise changes

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SparklySneakers · 11/03/2019 22:23

I do feel a bit thick on here at times and wonder where the big posters get all their info from. It's easy to think they have access to information that most don't. Most things seem to come from twitter so I take them as opinion rather than fact. All this speculating and re-posting a variety of twitter tweets doesn't seem to get us anywhere and if anything gets us more stressed. Until something is official I'm taking no notice of anything tweeted or opined for the sake of my sanity.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2019 22:25

Starmer is saying he does not believe the evening’s developments would allow the attorney general to change his legal advice Hmm

depends how loyal he is

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