Westminstenders: Stuck in the Middle With TIGGERS

[RedToothBrush]

Well I don't know how we got here tonight.
We've got the feeling that something ain't right.
We're so scared as we leave the EU
And we're wondering how we'll get out of this stew

Antisemites to the left of me!
Dog Whistles to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

'Cause I'm stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.
And I'm wondering what it is we should do.
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face.
Losing control and running all over the place.

Clowns to the left of me!
Jokers to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

When you started off with rights
And you're starting to wonder if thats for life.
And all the politicians come crawling
Slap you on the back and say
Please . . .
Please . . .
Vote Leave and back EU Withdrawal

But we see it makes no sense at all.

Best to keep your money offshore
Than to visit the bookstore

Deniers to the left of me!
Islamaphobes to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle with you.

Its finally happened. FINALLY.

MPs have seen that their leaders have lost the plot and are hell bent on destruction and politicial ideology ahead of practicality and will justify the unjustifable in the face of democracy and they have jumped ship.

Enter stage left and stage right: The TIGGERS - members of The Independent Group.

Will there be more. Hard to say no. It seems almost certain there will be more.

Will it make a difference? Difficult to call, but these MPs would be driven out sooner or later. Such is our accelerating politicial polarisation and narrowing of views. This is their last stand. They have nothing left to lose on a personal level.

Whether you agree with the TIGGERS or still look to the other parties for policy, I do think that the emergence of the TIGGERS marks a feeling of optimism and much needed hope for many many Remainers / Moderates, even if it ultimately does fizzle out.

A reflection from 2017: People voted for Corbyn because they were looking for Hope. When he's failed to deliver that, its led to disillusionment and he can not pull the same trick again at a future GE. This makes that doubly so. People are STILL very much looking for that hope. If Brexit does go tits up in a big fashion, then what happens? To what direction do people look? I'm sure there will be the bitterest of recriminations, but... hope is a big deal. We need something...

Tick tick tick. 37 days til Brexit.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation

Andrew Wakefield based his ideas on a study of 12 children, selected, already with bowel conditions. There were other studies of 2 million children that showed no evidence of the link he claimed to have found. So there's no 'probably overstating the position' about it. He did and continues to do untold harm to children's health.

And indirectly to other people's health - a lot of time and resources have been spent on research investigating the nonexistent link that could have been spent on researching other health problems.

You could turn the MMR question to Brexit now. There have not been any published inquiries into foreign funded influence but a shower of speculation. With 'reports' taking 2 or 3 years to emerge then be correlated with other info, it is difficult to know what is the best way to proceed.

{And indirectly to other people's health - a lot of time and resources have been spent on research investigating the nonexistent link that could have been spent on researching other health problems.}
It would be possible to argue that all 'investigations' actually move things forward in that it brought the question of triple vaccinations into the 'safe' category. The intense scrutiny has helped although not directly.

@LonelyandTiredandLow - herd immunity or lack of is why the equine industry is having problems at the moment. Equine flu - only 30% of population vaccinated, and now there is a massive out break. Lots of anti - vaxxers on social media saying "horses don't die from it" - that's cold comfort to those who have actually lost their horses .

My mother was v v pro measles vaccine - since my brother (pre vaccine days ) ended up in hospital with seizures and a boy in his class died. She said it was the scariest experience of her life (given her best friend was murdered and she was subjected to sustained attacks by the alleged murderers family and media.....well she had her fair share of grief) - and again it makes me really mad when people state that people don't die from measles. They don't understand the risks and have no understanding of herd immunity.

I also think that there should be mandatory health checks at each stage of life baby, infant, child, teen, midlife etc. If we could get men to go to the doctor just once ever 10 years we would save lives and enable better health whilst arguably lowering the suicide rate.

No evidence that 40 year old health checks are helpful. Indeed possibly evidence to the contrary. See Margaret McCartney on this one, as she's been pushing for evidence on the subject to support its use and its not particularly forthcoming. The argument is creates 'worried well' who take up precious GP time and possibly means that there is overdiagnosis at the expense of those who have been diagnosed with conditions and need to see the doctor.

Its an area where research needs to be done as the outcome may well be contrary to the natural assumption that regular health checks throughout life are a good thing.

Re the trade talks and the lack of parliamentary oversight - it's worse than that: the negotiations are being undertaken in secret and the talks only published four years after they've been signed and sealed

https://inews.co.uk/news/exclusive-uk-demands-secrecy-brexit-trade-talks-us/

This has implications for farming and food labelling and health - all devolved areas which are covered by the "Power Grab". No wonder the devolved administrations were so angry - and why Westmonster were determined to push it through And why they need to do the trade talks in secret

The Worried well are arguably largely middle class females with a webMed addiction and anxiety. Health anxiety is under diagnosed IMO and I would be amazed if Brexit hasn't caused a spike in MH issues such as anxiety and depression. Obviously health anxiety isn't as harmful (in most cases) as a man with suicidal thoughts, but the stem is similar in many cases and IMO GP's have overlooked these psycho-social issues (loneliness for e.g) for too long. It is now being addressed with social prescribing now, but it is dependant on whether your GP is on board and has had relevant training as well as local provision.

Seen this? Imagine if Lammy tiggers!
www.facebook.com/19129786540/posts/10155896792911541/

Sorry, I don't want to derail. I sometimes over think on the why's of the vote and draw odd comparisons. I worry that if we do have health issues such as epidemics as a result of Brexit we won't be equipped to deal with them. Vaccinations take 3 months to produce IIRC and a new disease caused by rotting livestock leaching into land could be pretty serious.

I feel I'm rambling a bit - need some rest. Thanks for the mini-debate though all!

Re vaccinations, I knew right from the start that Wakefield was just plain wrong , misleading and dangerous - but maybe it goes back to how "informed" people are able to be. My dad was a paediatric radiologist - so not in Wakefield's area, but close enough to know that his research was, to say the least, dodgy. We talked about it often at suppers at my parents.

Plus I remembered from one of the options in my degree (just a simple, peripheral but still important one: methodology) that it is not possible to prove a negative . So all those people demanding that vaccinations be proven not to cause autism were asking for the impossible

A little levity...Fascinating Aida song about Brexit entitles 'Sorry Scotland'

--Presume they'll need a sorry Ireland version too

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/21/labour-reports-former-mp-joan-ryan-over-alleged-data-breach?CMP=share_btn_tw
Labour reports former MP Joan Ryan over alleged data breach

Party claims MP contacted its supporters after quitting for the Independent Group

TIGGER controversy #2

My daughter had the MMR as separate vaccinations, due to Wakefield, i think it cost about £160 for the course, when she was older had the MMR booster.

Do i regret this? No. at the time his research was given a lot of credibility.

I thought at the time the NHS should offer both types of vaccination, rather than have large numbers having nothing at all.

Its all very well with the benefit of hindsight saying all these parents were irresponsible but what if wakefield had been correct?

TBF i'm not entirely at ease with giving v young children with developing immune systems upteen different vaccinations.

leClerc - yes at least we know the MMR is safe as a result. But without the media outrage we could have established that with fewer resources - there were a lot more studies done on this than on other equally valid investigations .

As it is, you could argue the real damage is far wider - there a large group of people who not only refuse to believe the large body of evidence that it's safe but also use that as an excuse to mistrust any medical evidence at all.

And in just in case I'm in danger of getting off-topic, that brings us back once again to mistrusting experts and believing newspaper soundbites over detailed reasoned evidence.

And breathe...didn’t make it on to the last thread at all. Real life has been a bit full-on and you lot are prolific! Thanks to Red.

Having spent much of today feeling bad about my currently somewhat woeful domestic achievements (or lack thereof) I read this:

also plan to make sure EVERYTHING is washed for 29th March as if we have a shortage of water, this means water for cleaning is going to also be very limited.

and it occurred to me I really am going to have to finally tackle the laundry basket of doom... 😱😱😱

Love love love Fascinating Aida.
See also Ofsted song.
They are wonderful live but not touring anymore. Think Adele's cancer is part of it.

Rory Stewart Retweeted
Joe Pike @joepike
NEW: 'I do not accept the picture you paint of our Party.'

Theresa May writes letter to defector MPs Soubry, Wollaston and Allen.

Is this Rory Stewart supporting May or the Three Amigos???

I think this map has been widely shared amongst the those doing research in the little room with Peter Lilley and Gavin Williamson.

Socriatic you hit my weird link there with the trusting experts glad it wasn't just me who saw it there. Just I somehow omitted it from any of my rambles! Lurking again now

xebob waste water treatment works use various chemicals to make it easier to collect and separate liquids from solids. Clean water works use flocculants too, for the same purpose.

Where I work we have 2 main suppliers, one manufactures in France and the other in Germany. Both are running stocks as high as practical and the chemicals have a reasonable shelf life so there isn't a fresh fruit style problem.

If we can't source our usual chemical we can try an alternative (sometimes have to do this anyway) which may or may not be as effective (or occasionally better). Otherwise we have to reduce throughput where possible and often end up returning more solids heavy liquids to the head of the works and over treating which has cost and energy load implications. It also increases the risk of failing consent and letting more particulates than we should back into the rivers.

As a while the industry is looking to get away from chemical use by using newer technology. There's also a load of new challenges being pushed by the regulator over phosphate removal which will also affect which chemicals are cost effective to use.

Hasenstein Thu 21-Feb-19 16:23:14
Thanks, GeistohneGrenzen, I'm not very good at this Internet thing

No probs. Info retrieval was part of my professional life long long ago... but to be honest, I'd already bookmarked the TIG website after being led to it by a PP

Liam Fox: “Oops - the dog ate my homework”:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47319533

TBF i'm not entirely at ease with giving v young children with developing immune systems upteen different vaccinations.

My dad made exactly the opposite point: that it was a lot less of a strain on children's immune system to give them combined vaccinations, like DPT and MMR than to give the vaccinations separately (with the additional concern of gaps between individual vaccinations - and the fact that a few parents didn't complete the course ). Can't remember the detail of the discussion, but it was something to do with the very fact that children's immune systems are developing, adaptable and being constantly exposed to new infections anyway (cp the Bristol [?] effect where farm children have fewer infections than those brought up in more sterile environments as they've had a chance to build up resistance)

Anyway, that is another diversion - although as others have pointed out, there are parallels with Brexit, with the distrust of experts, only choosing to listen to dubious "supporting" evidence, and evidence of the "negative" will only happen after the event - when it is too late And others who believed that surely the medics/experts wouldn't let them put loved ones/themselves in danger - not realising that there were vested interests promoting the theory (whether that be Wakefield's alleged monetary/career interests or clickbait/newspaper sales on the part of those that kept the controversy going).

I like this suggestion for a 2nd referendum.

Yes, there's no benefit in delaying the protection children get from three vaccines they can have together by stringing them all out separately, is the logic, as well as the knowledge that the more appointments are needed, the greater the number of people who don't attend them.

This of course was parlayed into 'the evil NHS won't let you choose the single vaccinations - CONSPIRACY!' response that the media were happy to circulate. Not like there might be any scientific thinking to reckon with at all. I am no one-sided supporter of everything done by the NHS, but it really did get an unfair kicking over this and the fawning over Wakefield, with a conspicuous lack of critical thinking, did incredible damage. Still does, seeing that people clearly still think there's no smoke without fire..