Who thinks there should be another referendum

[paprickapaull]

Who thinks there should be another referendum?
My mum says there shouldn't but my husband says there should be I'm not very sure.

What do u think?

@MeganBacon

Self-glorification is hardly a good thing. It’s selfish.

It takes a special kind of narcissism to believe you and only you can run a whole country imo.

Jitters
She then brings that deal back and it is overwhelmingly rejected by the UK parliament. Not just left wingers, not just right wingers, not just Scottish and Welsh nationalists and not just Ulster Unionists, but elected politicians of all persuasions right across the board.

Of course it was rejected. It wasn't 'hard' enough for the extremists and it wasn't 'soft' enough not to cause major damage to the UK. NB: ALL of the government's own impact assessments show a negative effect from Brexit. Furthermore, why would you expect the EU to then re-negotiate the backstop when it relates to a binding peace agreement that impacts directly on another (current and enthusiastic) EU member?

Your are speaking about more than half of the population of the UK and their dissatisfaction with EU isn't just about what Mogg, Farage and Boris say, nor does it have anything to do with being thick or racist.
We are NOT speaking about 'more than half the population of the UK'. We are talking about slightly more then half the then-eligible voting public, which is quite different. This is another leaver falsehood that gets trotted out regularly.

It never takes long for a leave supporter to trot out that straw man line about 'thick racists' in order to attribute to remainers words that were never actually said.

@iggly of course it is a bad thing. I was just saying some want glory and you would hardly trash the economy thinking that would achieve glory.

And it may be about power too but you’re not going to have power for long if it’s obvious to all that you trashed the economy to get it.

My point was that plenty of intelligent leavers genuinely believe leave is better for the economy and remainers have failed to significantly sway consensus over the past two years in spite of us apparently knowing more (I don’t feel I know much more actually in spite of all my best efforts). And that’s why a second ref is pointless. And don’t tell me it’s due to all those thick leavers because if they are that thick, wouldn’t they have been easily convinced to change their minds?

I don’t want another referendum.
I think this has been monumentally mismanaged.
I do not believe we live in a democracy anymore.
I do not feel I have a say.
I am more disillusioned with politics than I ever have been.
I am disgusted with the Tories. They will never ever get a vote from me.
But the when you need a strong opposition what do we get? At the moment I really can’t vote for Labour either.
In my opinion the only option we have now is to Revoke.
Govt admit that we have fucked this up. So much damage has already been done. Do we really want the economic consequences of a no deal, a return of the Troubles in NI and the break up of the UK?
Let’s Revoke, get a plan sorted over the next however many years and then take it from there.

you’re not going to have power for long if it’s obvious to all that you trashed the economy to get it.

Sadly I don't think this is true. people's idea of 'obvious' is very subjective.. The government's own impact assessments showed at least an 8% economic hit worse in some areas of the country. (This was why the assessments were initially suppressed and secretive and only disclosed after a battle ).

However for the politicians with an agenda, most of the press and many voters it will not be admitted that the referendum and the current gov trashed the economy. It's because these things happen incrementally..there will be comments like:

-A recession was coming anyway.

• The NHS was failing due to mismanagement anyway.

-The pound would have fallen anyway. -The US and China are having problems this would have affected us anyway -Or it will be It's the EU punishing us.

These are not true but will be believed. You can see the effects of Brexit on business already but no one believes it.

Read this and weep

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTIPx0lI6pb-3Tn-3D6uNJNyKcCd-A8uPMxViagyJAR9T87ZmnSdAEPCzp5ljlNYoUNdxJiJqQdBm7b/pubhtml

@Jitters22
Just because you posted 'WAR AND PEACE' doesn't mean that it is right. Other people are entitled to their own opinion and should be allowed to have that opinion.

I was just saying some want glory and you would hardly trash the economy thinking that would achieve glory

People genuinely don’t think it will trash the economy. Or they think it won’t be as bad as they think.

People live in a bubble - they don’t truely try and understand how the majority lives and the impact of changes on them. Universal credit is a case in point. Despite all the evidence, and reports etc people still deny its a mess.

Doubt is a sign of intelligence btw.

So no it's not easy to change people's minds.

"Genuine question. Who is leading them to 'believe' that No Deal is what they want?"

Carol Cadwalladr has done some considerable research around that very question.
Who manipulated the original referendum?

Most people in this country are keeping their heads down until it's all over. They certainly aren't threatening riots and demanding "No Deal".

@OP - a 2nd referendum is both justified and arguably the only way to settle the issue democratically.
It seems we've had a number of common arguments against a 2nd referendum on this thread, including:

• the 2016 referendum decided the matter, a 2nd referendum doesn't honour that vote and is undemocratic

The 2016 vote was based on a generic leave proposition rather than anything specific. We now have a specific Withdrawal Agreement provisionally agreed by UK government and EU (although not yet ratified by UK parliament). This is new information for the UK public and another referendum is justified. Also worth noting that having another referendum is intrinsically democratic anyway.

• We don't have time. It's not possible as we're already committed

The EU would very likely grant UK and extension to the A50 period to allow UK to have a 2nd referendum. Even if they don't, then UK can force it by withdrawing A50 unilaterally (as by ECJ), having 2nd referendum, then resubmitting A50 (EU would grant extension to avoid this).

• the result would be the same. Nobody has changed their mind

There is reasonable evidence that a small minority would reverse the 2016 decision. Also a strong argument for holding a 2nd referendum - the public may have changed it's mind on this matter.

• having a referendum would damage our negotiating position

The EU have been clear that the Withdrawal Agreement is not open for renegotiation. If true, then the prospect of another referendum will have no effect.

• A 2nd referendum will increase UK division and will incite far right groups.

The UK is already very divided. Proceeding with Brexit when polls indicate a majority against proceeding will only entrench that division. The UK government or parliament revoking A50 without a referendum will certainly inflame many leavers and it seems likely that a political group (regardless left/right) will gain popularity on the basis that the 2016 referendum was betrayed. A 2nd referendum at least provides a democratic basis for a confirmation of leave or a remain policy. Division will likely continue regardless.

• We just need to get on with it. Let's just leave in March and that'll be it.

The Withdrawal Agreement does not decide the nature of our future relationship with Europe. Brexit will continue to be discussed until the end of the transition period in Dec 2020 at least. If no agreement is reached by then, the NI backstop proposal will be applied and negotiations will continue until the UK & EU agree a mutually acceptable trading/customs position that is consistent with the NI GFA. This situation could continue indefinitely. Even if we leave without a deal, we'll still need to agree our future relationship with the EU. If Brexit proceeds at all, Brexit will continue to dominate UK trade and politics for a number of years. A 2nd referendum with a remain outcome is the only way to resolve the issue quickly.

twofingerstoEverything Actually it was nowhere near half the population that voted for Brexit.

www.google.com/search?q=percentage+who+voted+for+brexit&client=tablet-android-samsung&prmd=niv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjpnMzIzbbgAhWSwOYKHbclAikQ_AUoAnoECAwQAg&biw=1098&bih=686#imgrc=OgD5DLaz9-KDXM

Kenn - please read my post again.
You will see I am quoting Jitters. I am fully aware that nowhere near 'half the population' voted for Brexit.

May is a Xenophobic racist who will do anything to close the UKs borders.

Corbyn is a useful idiot Tory mole who wants to turn his back on the 21st century

Another referendum would just legitimise one of them
or worst of all, both of them.

@jitters22 Thank you for your thoughtful contributions. But also curse you. I’d just about given up on the Brexit board, and was looking forward to life outside the echo chamber. Guess I’m a fan of War and Peace expository excellence.

No to another referendum.

Yes to MPs getting their arses into gear and acting in the interests of the country, not themselves and their cronies.

Oh I see the pigs flying now. Well they've been flying for a while, actually.

Yes to MPs getting their arses into gear and acting in the interests of the country, not themselves and their cronies.
The best interests of the country are revoke and remain.

I voted remain but I don't want another referendum. The first had caused enough trouble! I think it's too complex an issue to put to the public. If this isn't followed through with, all the leavers will be crying that democracy hasn't been respected, the will of the people ignored. And saying it was just because the remainders 'didn't like' the first result and can't suck it up.

I think a lot of remainers live in a bubble and think that remain would win. Just because it has become apparent it is a disaster doesn't mean that leavers have changed their minds! A few may have but a lot more would be even more determined to leave, there's no reasoning with a lot of these people, they are hell bent on it and would not like to admit they're wrong. Also people would want to prove a point as they object to being called thick. Some remainers have even changed their minds and would vote leave because they think the EU has made it so hard to leave and it shows how controlling they are. Also if there is a PV what then? Go through all this again? Nothing is good about this situation but sadly it has to play out now

AlphaJuno

That is a very defeatist attitude!

If the HoC cannot get a majority for any one thing, then a PV is acceptable, if the UK votes to accept Mays deal or Remain - the way is clear for the UK to go in the direction it has chosen.

To just drift into a no-deal because no-one can decide what the fuck they want, would be an unforgivable dereliction of duty.

Got to say I don't think Revoke/Remain would win a second referendum. But what really scares me is a second referendum with No Deal as an option . Because enough people are stupid enough to vote for it.

No it's done.

No it's done.
Actually, the problem is that it's far from 'done'.

It’s not done.

And when we’ve left it’s going to be a pile of shit to clean up.

The majority voted Leave.

Will it stop if Leave 'win' again?
Or if Remain 'win', will the Leavers then be not expected to contest that?

Another referendum is not the answer.