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Brexit

Who thinks there should be another referendum

510 replies

paprickapaull · 11/02/2019 19:23

Who thinks there should be another referendum?
My mum says there shouldn't but my husband says there should be I'm not very sure.

What do u think?

OP posts:
TonightJosephine · 12/03/2019 12:39

I just cannot accept that people who have made their lives elsewhere - with no intention of returning, that’s my sole objection - should retain the right to participate in a vote that dictates the lives of the people who live here, wherever they come from.

I think the point Mistigri is making is that this particular vote dictates the lives of those people who have made their lives there, and it seems very unfair to watch from the sidelines as a bunch of mostly very misinformed people back in the UK casually vote to remove or restrict your rights to be in the country you have made your home, often for incredibly stupid reasons, when you don't even get a say in the matter.

I would have extended the vote to all UK citizens abroad (or at least all UK citizens living in the EU) no matter how long they had been gone, EU citizens living in the UK (perhaps for more than a minimum period of time, say three years), and all 16 and 17 year olds.

JRMisOdious · 12/03/2019 12:54

TonightJosephine

I think the point Mistigri is making is that this particular vote dictates the lives of those people who have made their lives there, and it seems very unfair to watch from the sidelines as a bunch of mostly very misinformed people back in the UK casually vote to remove or restrict your rights to be in the country you have made your home, often for incredibly stupid reasons, when you don't even get a say in the matter.”

Wouldn’t you though, if you had decided to make your home in another European country (or any country) and wanted to enshrine your rights there, apply for citizenship of that country when you took up residency? Why would it matter then what happened in the UK?
I’m not being deliberately obtuse, I’m really trying to understand. If I settled elsewhere, I would want to be a citizen there, I would need that security. If British citizens are already resident in Europe and have been since before the referendum took place, hasn’t the EU said they can remain, as can EU citizens here? (assuming there’s an agreement of course, which most commentators here seem to believe there will be).

1tisILeClerc · 12/03/2019 13:04

{I just cannot accept that people who have made their lives elsewhere - with no intention of returning, that’s my sole objection}

Despite no wish to return to the UK personally, my vote would be used to improve the conditions of the rest of my family who are in the UK, be they parents, siblings, children or cousins etc.

TonightJosephine · 12/03/2019 13:15

Wouldn’t you though, if you had decided to make your home in another European country (or any country) and wanted to enshrine your rights there, apply for citizenship of that country when you took up residency? Why would it matter then what happened in the UK?

OK well first of all, not all countries are the same. I don't understand why someone who had been resident in France for more than five years would not have applied for French citizenship, for example, but someone living in Spain is in a much more difficult position. It depends on the host country and their attitude towards dual citizenship.

Personally I will be applying for French citizenship as soon as I am eligible, but that won't be for another three years yet.

I’m not being deliberately obtuse, I’m really trying to understand. If I settled elsewhere, I would want to be a citizen there, I would need that security.

Yes I agree, but as above, it's not always that simple.

If British citizens are already resident in Europe and have been since before the referendum took place, hasn’t the EU said they can remain, as can EU citizens here? (assuming there’s an agreement of course, which most commentators here seem to believe there will be).

The approach will be different in each country. The EU cannot dictate how any of its member states treats third country nationals, which is what we will be after Brexit. In France, for example, Macron has put emergency measures in place to make sure that British citizens can legally remain in France even in the event of no deal, and will have a year to get their paperwork together provided that French citizens in the UK are treated no less favourably.

That said, some people are being given first appointments to get a residents' card more than a year from now (I've heard of people getting appointments in June 2020 and October 2020). It's currently taking well over a year to process applications to exchange a UK driving licence for a French one, and anybody who applied since January is having their application sent back and there is a chance that they could be required to take a French driving test.

And then there are the people who live in one member state and work in another (or work across multiple member states). As far as I understand it, nothing has been done to protect their position and there is very little they can do to help themselves.

I hope you can see that actually, it's not that simple for a lot of people, and some people do risk not being able to stay, or work, or drive, despite having taken all the steps they can to protect themselves.

As for not having an interest in the UK's future, I'm not sure that's necessarily fair either. A lot of the people who have retired to the EU are still paying tax in the UK, rather than in their host country. And Brexit (and whatever agreement we reach with the EU) affects all sorts of things such as whether their pensions continue to be index linked.

In my case, I am here, married to and planning a family with a French man. Our future children will be dual citizens and I would like them to feel that both countries are their home. I would like us to all live together in the UK at some point, if it is feasible. So yes, I do feel that I have and will continue to have a personal interest in what happens in the UK.

TonightJosephine · 12/03/2019 13:20

Specifically on the voting point, I believe that voting and participating in the democratic process are very important, which is another good argument for getting dual citizenship if you leave the UK permanently. I won't be eligible to vote in the next French elections, and so for me it will still be important to vote in UK general elections. If I'm still here for the French elections in 2027 and have citizenship and the right to vote, I probably wouldn't feel so strongly about continuing to vote in UK general elections (although referendums are a different matter because they affect more than just the next parliament).

ithinkmycatistryingtokillme · 12/03/2019 13:28

Wbat about the crown dependencies, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, this will affect us but we had no vote in the referendum and no say in negotiations. The UK goverment have said they will look after ys but thete is no advantage on voting terms for them to do so

blithering · 12/03/2019 13:42

TonightJosephine

(Ah, living in France, see what you did with the name there😁)

Having unsubscribed as JRM, just signed on again under this name to say thank you so much for your insightful and comprehensive replies to my last questions. It certainly isn’t that simple, much of what you said I simply didn’t know. I’m clearly more stupid than I realised.
I wouldn’t necessarily draw the same conclusions as you or feel the same way about voting rights, to me it would just feel I was trying to hedge my bets, but I certainly appreciate your point of view. You’re living it, Im not,.
I’ve nevet lived in another European country, only had the opportunity for secondment to Tokyo, which, foolishly we turned down at my behest, I thought our daughter was too young. Idiot. Security is (much to my irritation) an huge thing with me. We could never have become citizens even if we’d loved it and decided to remain there. Back then it simply wasn’t an option, citizenship wasn’t granted to foreigners full stop, not sure if that’s changed. But had it been possible, I would have felt it unreasonable to expect to vote in two countries.
Wish you the very best for your future there. Off to unsubscribe again, hopefully more quickly than I managed 20 minutes ago 🤪

TonightJosephine · 12/03/2019 14:07

@blithering / JRM

Thank you for your reply. I don't think you're stupid at all. I don't think most people living in the UK do understand these things (why would they?) and nor do I expect them to. Just wanted to put my view across as to why I think it's right for us to have some democratic representation, especially on a subject such as Brexit.

The leave voters living in Spain enrage me as much as they do you, and it would serve them right if they can't get access to healthcare and have to go back to the UK... but then of course that would also apply all the remain voters living in Spain!

blithering · 12/03/2019 14:44

“Despite no wish to return to the UK personally, my vote would be used to improve the conditions of the rest of my family who are in the UK, be they parents, siblings, children or cousins etc.”

Completely understand that desire, but is that really fair? Presumably they have their own vote, assuming majority? Lots of people have cited democracy, is it really democratic for a person with no iintention of ever resuming residency in the UK to effectively have an additional proxy vote on behalf of a third party, one who already has their own voting rights, whatever the motivation?

Mistigri · 12/03/2019 14:59

Getting citizenship is never simple. It can be complicated by:

  • poor language skills (this is what will prevent the vast majority of Britons in Europe taking local citizenship in France and Spain, unless they are old enough to be excused the language test)
  • dual citizenship not allowed
  • lack of resources to make an application (requires you to pay for language test, court-sworn translations etc) even if this is less of a burden than for the 3 million in the U.K.
  • disability, ill health etc - for eg I have a friend with hearing loss who will never pass the language test, and a tenant with throat cancer who would not be able to attend the necessary appointments (and who certainly won't pass the language test)

And of course you are never guaranteed that a naturalisation application will be granted.

The idea that migrants should be forced to change nationality or have their democratic rights stripped from them is repulsive to me. This thread certainly shows that many remainers are just as prejudiced against migrants as leavers.

TonightJosephine · 12/03/2019 15:08

@Mistigri slightly off topic but I understand you are in France. Do you think it's better to apply for French citizenship by marriage or by naturalisation?

Mistigri · 12/03/2019 17:58

Josephine I really have no idea I'm afraid. I'm still holding out hope for a transition long enough that I can obtain citizenship via my French kids (when I'm 65 - a while yet).

MissedTheBoatAgain · 12/03/2019 22:34

Thankfully MPs once again rejected Mays hideous remain in disguise deal.

gnushoes · 12/03/2019 23:56

Referendum - so we can vote on detail. Despite what leavers day the last result was close, we're split and not acknowledging that is at the heart of our current problems. Giving us more specific choices now is more democracy Smile

MissedTheBoatAgain · 13/03/2019 00:15

so we can vote on detail

What details? EU have made it clear. UK "pays 39 Billion to remain with a backstop.

Not convinced 2nd referendum would help for following reasons:

If 2016 result can be ignored why can't all referendums be ignored?

Will leavers change their vote? Don't think so as reasons for leave have not changed which were;

Brussels seen to be a dictatorship

Immigration is still uncontrolled.

Shortandsweet96 · 13/03/2019 00:29

Yes- now that everyone has a good idea of what how it will go down people might think differently.

For example, if your shown a lovely tall dark man and asked if you want to marry him. Yes.
But then told he is an axe murderer, you should be asked again, do you want to marry him. The majority vote would probably be no, because now they have new information that will influence their future and decision.

lonelyplanetmum · 13/03/2019 01:10

The standardised letter from the petitions committee seems to have dropped the irritating bits about leaving the EU to deliver upon the largest mandate of the people.The leaving date is no longer mentioned either!

This seems a significant shift...

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Revoke Art.50 if there is no Brexit plan by the 25 of February”.
To unsubscribe from getting emails about this petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/55082163/unsubscribe?token=xmzdYugsn0giKrPgASCC_

Dear XXX
Parliament debated the petition you signed – “Revoke Art.50 if there is no Brexit plan by the 25 of February”
Watch the debate: https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/ea9b610b-e4c5-4f08-8ed6-686830628a7aa_
Read the transcript: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-03-11/debates/4B98720A-8618-4312-84AE-E994485AC99F/LeavingTheEuropeanUnionn_
Read the research: https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CDP-2019-00611_
The petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/2397066_
Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

MissedTheBoatAgain · 13/03/2019 01:53

For example, if your shown a lovely tall dark man and asked if you want to marry him. Yes. But then told he is an axe murderer, you should be asked again, do you want to marry him. The majority vote would probably be no

How does that relate to a decision to leave or remain in the EU? If someone was an axe murderer who is going to present him as a potential partner.

Detail on ballot paper was clear

Leave EU

or

Remain in EU

I don't remember the leave campaign mentioning anything about axe murderers? The booklet that remain sent out to every household in the UK at cost of 9 Million to the UK taxpayer listed the risks.

What are the new risks since 2016?

bellinisurge · 13/03/2019 05:59

Just to remind everyone @MissedTheBoatAgain hasn't lived in the UK or EU for 30 years. 🐝

MissedTheBoatAgain · 13/03/2019 06:18

Just to remind everyone @MissedTheBoatAgain hasn't lived in the UK or EU for 30 years, but is a UK citizen with properties in; England, Scotland and Eastern Europe.

twofingerstoEverything · 13/03/2019 06:37

Ignore the GF.

TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 07:44

hasn't lived in the UK or EU for 30 years, but is a UK citizen with properties in; England, Scotland and Eastern Europe.

How is that relevant to us or to Brexit?

Can you confirm whether you actually voted, or whether you just have strong opinions?

Songsofexperience · 13/03/2019 07:49

@blithering

I know you didn't mean anything nasty and the thread is moving on but from the perspective of someone who did the reverse (EU to UK citizen) I would have felt cruelly punished if I'd had to give up my citizenship of origin. What a horrible dilemma! I'm thankful it's possible to be a dual citizen as I know it's not the case everywhere in the EU. Brexit is cruel enough as it is. Forcing people to choose would really be the last straw.

MissedTheBoatAgain · 13/03/2019 09:25

Can you confirm whether you actually voted, or whether you just have strong opinions

Did not vote. Just understand why leave won.

OublietteBravo · 13/03/2019 09:31

Assuming parliament votes against a no deal Brexit, I think there could be another referendum. The options should be:
Leave with the withdrawal agreement
or
Revoke article 50
since those are the only options the U.K. can actually implement at this point in time. I don’t see this as a re-run of 2016. The question is different because the situation is different (we know what ‘leave the EU’ looks like).

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