Who thinks there should be another referendum

[paprickapaull]

Who thinks there should be another referendum?
My mum says there shouldn't but my husband says there should be I'm not very sure.

What do u think?

If circumstances force them to return, that’s bad luck, they’ll have to take it as they find it. They can’t expect to reserve the right to help to determine a country’s future ad infinitum just because they may need to go back in extremis at some unspecified point in the future. May as well give everyone, everywhere the right to vote wherever they please, in case they decide to go live their one day!
If there is a 2nd vote, 16 and 17 year olds must be given their say, as they were in Scotland. It directly affects them, it’s unlikely to have much impact on 70 year old ex-pats. Doesn’t have to apply to general elections.
I was also 5/6 years (can’t remember which month it was) too young to vote in 75. I do remember how crappy life was then though.
I voted remain in 2016 because I want my country to succeed. Failure would be disastrous for my kids and I’ll be very happy indeed to be proven wrong.

(Sorry, in reply to Missed, lost my quotes again)

Mistigri, I think he might be a Remain troll.

If circumstances force them to return, that’s bad luck, they’ll have to take it as they find it

Correct.

it’s unlikely to have much impact on 70 year old ex-pats

Ever thought that the older generation voted for what they thought would be to the benefit of future generations?

can't your accountant advise you on that

Should be able to.

and doesn't like paying taxes

Who does?

My office closing now. Due to time zone difference you can look forward to my replies when you wake up tomorrow.

“Ever thought that the older generation voted for what they thought would be to the benefit of future generations?”

It’s an opinion. Do I think so though? No, I don’t. Unless like members of the ERG they were thinking of generations five decades hence, whom their leader tells us may begin to feel those benefits by then. That’s not going to do my kids a whole heap of good. Their grandparents voted remain for their benefit.

Now to the bit about 16 and 17 year olds. Minimum age to vote in UK is 18. So if not 18 on or before 23 June 2016 you could not vote. Nothing more to say on that as lines have to be drawn somewhere.

But in the Scottish Referendum they were allowed to vote. IMO perfectly reasonably because they will live with the results longest.

I personally didn't become eligible to vote until I was 19, because the Law changed. We could argue that the Law shouldn't have changed, and that non property owners really shouldn't have the vote and that we go back to 18th and 19th century rules. Times change.

Missed: “Ever thought that the older generation voted for what they thought would be to the benefit of future generations?”

Should have qualified my reply to that: based on purely personal experiences, no, I don’t think most older people who voted to leave were doing so with the younger generation in mind at all. Those I know who did don’t appear to have thought through the potential negative consequences for the young, education, travel, work opportunities at all. Subsequent conversations have demonstrated that very clearly. Their vote seems to have been based on not a lot more than rose tinted nostalgia and a yearning to go back to the good old days, when Britain (England, mostly actually) was, apparently, “great” (not my memory of the 69s/70s, life’s much improved now).
In contrast, and again only speaking generally from personal experience, the majority of older people I know who voted to remain seem to have based their vote on looking at the much bigger picture, how it would indeed affect people other than themselves like future generations.

60s

It may not be a well thought out argument, there are bound to be numerous individual worthy circumstances I haven’t even considered. But I’m just so bloody angry at the stupid old gits, sitting in Spain, France, wherever, living cheaply, waving their union jacks and singing Rule Brittania at the fex-pats club, banging on about the good old days and how Great Britain was before the EU and it’s bendy bananas ruined everything. These people had the right to vote leave and help to fk up the future for my children.
So, maybe my arguments are skewed. I’m so angry and despair for our country.

Sorry I missed this response.

I think your argument is a little skewed (and perhaps so is mine). My understanding is that most British people who live in the EU and had the right to vote in the referendum voted remain.

There are a few stupid old gits who have retired to France or Spain who publicly admit to having voted leave, but they are far from the majority. They are just more noteworthy because most of us can't understand the mentality of someone who would vote to remove the right to free movement which they personally exercised to go and live in a foreign country, knowing that is will remove other people's right to do the same, and could even result in them being repatriated by their host state (or at least having to pay through the nose for access to healthcare etc).

My belief that Brits abroad should be entitled to vote no matter how long they have lived abroad is based on the fact that there are many British people living in the EU who had no say on whether they would be allowed to continue living as they currently do. They are just as disenfranchised as EU citizens living in the UK, if not more so. For example, a French person living in the UK for more than years still has the right to vote in French elections (and even has their own dedicated MP), and is in theory now in a position to choose whether to register to remain in the UK, or whether to go home to France or exercise their continuing free movement to go and live somewhere else. A Brit living in Spain for more than 15 years (using Spain as my example because it is notoriously difficult to get dual citizenship, whereas a Brit living in France for 15 years could have got dual citizenship by now if it was important to them) has no vote in any national election, is losing the right to vote in European Parliament elections (the only right to vote they had), and is completely at the mercy of the UK and Spanish governments.

A British person who has lived in Belgium for over 15 years as an EU civil servant in the European Commission, would not have had the right to vote despite the fact that they have spent their career representing the UK's interests in the EU, and their entitlement to continue in their career path depends on them having an EU citizenship.

Well, I'll be marching on the 23rd for you lot to have a vote on MY future, but I definitely won't be marching for JRMisOdious - we may both be remainders but otherwise I find his/her opinions pretty odious tbh.

Mistigri

Fair enough. I’m sorry, I can only repeat my apology to you from earlier today:

“Came back in again because I wanted to apologise for being offensive to you Mistigri. Been thinking about this a lot overnight, about other people’s comments. You’re right, of course, there are many people living and working in Europe with every right to express their opinion via the UK ballot box, they are British citizens with every intention of returning home.
The group I am so angry with, and it’s such a visceral thing that the red mist descends so no, I probably don’t consider the bigger, far more nuanced picture, are the retirees who have made their permanent homes in EU countries, cut all ties with the UK and have absolutely no intention of ever returning. People in their 60/70s whose lives won’t be negatively affected by my country being cut adrift (unless of course there’s no deal and they’re all sent packing, though I doubt that possibility entered their heads) contributed to this appalling outcome that will negatively affect my childrens’ lives for decades. They should have a right to a say in that when my 16 year old son has none? I do unfortunately personally know people in that group in Spain who did vote to leave: went to great lengths to exercise their “right” with much flag waving jingoism and apparent disdain for their European hosts. Ask them now if they plan then to return to these glorious new sunny uplands when the decision they played a part in implementing is enacted? A hollow laugh and not on your life is the usual response. It’s disgusting.”

Again, I’m sorry my opinion is offensive to you. I’m equally offended that ex-pats - those with no intention whatsoever of ever returning - have a say in our 16 year old son’s future, when he has none. I hope you find the march worthwhile.

I’m equally offended that ex-pats - those with no intention whatsoever of ever returning - have a say in our 16 year old son’s future, when he has none. I hope you find the march worthwhile.

Surely it would suffice to simply be offended that your 16 year old son has no say in his future?

I live in France and currently have no intention of returning, but will still have the vote for another 13 years.

I am still offended on your son's behalf that he has no right to a say in this matter.

TonightJosephine

Well, each to their own. If we were ever able to retire to Portugal, it just wouldn’t occur to me to vote in the UK any more because I wouldn’t feel I had a personal stake any more, if that makes any sense .

(which it seems not to if responses on here are anything to go by.
Shifts her odious (😫)carcass out of the chair where she’s been sat way to long and moves on with her life .... )

Ps

Surely it would suffice to simply be offended that your 16 year old son has no say in his future?

Yes, I expect you’re right, very probably would have been if some of those very people I’m talking about - those I know personally - hadn’t been so bloody gleeful and gloating for nearly 3 years.

But in the Scottish Referendum they were allowed to vote. IMO perfectly reasonably because they will live with the results longest

Yes and still Salmond and Sturgeon did not get the result they wanted!

Do those under 16 not statistically live longer than those who are already 16? If yes then should the voting age not be lower than 16?

those I know personally - hadn’t been so bloody gleeful and gloating for nearly 3 years

Maybe just ignore in the future? Been to many Countries and have always come across people who like to create the impression they are multi millionaire superstars. Most are not.

🐝

Missed:
Nothing to do with their living standards? I mean gleeful and gloating about the UK, where they no longer live and never will again, leaving. It rubs salt in the open wound and makes me sore, which I find very hard to ignore. I know I should be the better person and rise above it but there we are.

Don’t care about their millions, imagined or otherwise 😂

Again, I’m sorry my opinion is offensive to you. I’m equally offended that ex-pats - those with no intention whatsoever of ever returning - have a say in our 16 year old son’s future, when he has none. I hope you find the march worthwhile.

I missed your previous reply, for which I apologise.

Never forget that, of the 16-17 year olds most affected by this, some are the children of the British in Europe. They have no say; nor, in many cases, do their parents. They didn't choose to "leave". They have no right to citizenship of the country they live in, because they cannot apply until they are adults. Some of them are applying for university this year not knowing whether they will be able to go and under what conditions. Some are at risk of losing their residence rights if they leave home to study in the U.K. or elsewhere - they may lose the right to "come home".

I don't understand why people like you want to make enemies of the British in Europe, most of whom are remainers or would have voted remain if they could.

When I march on the 23rd, I won't be marching on behalf of anti-migrant bigots (whichever direction their bigotry works in) but for the migrants - the British in Europe and the 3 Million - who have been comprehensively stabbed in the back by the British government, aided and abetted by British voters like you.

{Brussels chiefs like Barnier, etc., are appointed as opposed to elected}
But they do not make the rules and laws, they are the spokespeople representing the elected ones that do. They can't go out on a limb and promise anything off their own bat.

Well, each to their own. If we were ever able to retire to Portugal, it just wouldn’t occur to me to vote in the UK any more because I wouldn’t feel I had a personal stake any more, if that makes any sense.

Maybe not in general elections but every Brit living in the EU has a very real stake in the outcome of the Brexit referendum.

The people you know in Spain or wherever who voted leave are clearly as thick as mince, but they are very much in the minority. I am in multiple Facebook groups for Brits trying to sort out their immigration position in France and 99% of the people on there are vocally pro remain and fed up to the back teeth with all of this.

The problem is that you can't say a certain group (e.g. Brits living in the EU) can vote as long as they vote a certain way. That's not how democracy works. But I'm sure that if all Brits living in the EU had been able to vote in the referendum, there would have been more votes for remain.

Mistigri

However I try to look at it - and I was wrong about or simply hadn’t considered the circumstances of many individuals you have now brought to my attention - I just cannot accept that people who have made their lives elsewhere - with no intention of returning, that’s my sole objection - should retain the right to participate in a vote that dictates the lives of the people who live here, wherever they come from. I admit I’m very likely blinkered about the particular ex-pat group I have referred to and their attitudes because that is my personal experience. I think bigot is unfair. I welcome immigration wholeheartedly, from anywhere in the world, we’d be sunk without it. In my ideal world, everyone would have the right to vote in the country they settled in. But it’s far from ideal. It’s desperate at the moment and I’m off to unsubscribe now. I’ve avoided social media until now, and probably should again. It’s bad enough for everyone, whatever their view, living with this awful uncertainty and anxiety in the real world without stoking it on here. I’m not very good at it, I’ve risen to bait from people who clearly get a rise out of poking people with a stick and obviously deeply offended a complete stranger who I agree with about a lot of things, which was never my intention, so apologies.