Why are people being so utterly vile?

[WrongKindOfFace]

Not on here, but online in general. I know tensions are running high, and people have very polarised viewpoints, but the level of vitriol and blatant racism is shocking. I’ve come to accept it as normal from the likes of the daily mail comments, but it’s even on Facebook - with their photo, name and place of work attached.

(And yes, before anyone says it, remainers can be pretty unpleasant calling leavers thick etc.)

The problem with asking again is that another close result (either way) will only make divisions worse

Instead of asking again, they should ask us how we want to leave the EU. Set out the risks and rewards of different options.

They did it in Ireland so why not here?

Personally I am scared at the thought of Theresa May being influenced by the likes of Rees Mogg. Who is hardly representative of the country as a whole.

I also agree that it is difficult to make the case that the referendum was only advisory (even if legally, that was the case). There are several problems with the referendum though which suggests that there could be a case for revoking article 50.

The first is that the leave campaign broke the law. The second is that it was clearly sold on a false perspective, and that is borne out by the two and half years where we have made very little progress, and if even if we get a deal, we face another two years (at least) to arrange our future relationship with the EU. In practice, the outcome that will occur in 2021 (at the earliest) will have been on the basis of a 54:48 referendum in 2016, and in those 5 years, the demographics of the electorate will have changed. Compare that to the 1975 referendum where it was won 67:33. The third reason is the observed reality of the negative impacts it is having on our economy and life.

@Maid

Yes should have read remainers.

Those questioning why we would lose democracy as we know it in this country if we don't leave, I suggest you google the word to see its meaning.

@LadyKalila

Those questioning why we would lose democracy as we know it in this country if we don't leave, I suggest you google the word to see its meaning

That's not an answer. People have explained to you using arguments why "democracy" is more simple than one vote, once! (in democracy, people can change their minds over time, the reality that the facts have changed, and the necessary conflicts between direct and indirect democracy, and the fact that Parliament is sovereign.

I ask you this, if a democratically elected parliament were to overturn the results of the referendum, how would it be undemocratic?

Hotterthanahot who voted for the MPs and put them in Westminster?

According to Suella whatever her name was, on QT a few weeks back, they are all self-appointed.

Those questioning why we would lose democracy as we know it in this country if we don't leave, I suggest you google the word to see its meaning

As far as I’m concerned we’ve already lost democracy by ploughing ahead on the results of a referendum which was dodgy due to law breaking and possible Russian interference.

What’s the point of voting at all, if it is found that the election campaigns are illegal, and therefore the result is called into question?
What the actual fuck?

"Do you have any memory of the Euro crisis (only 10ish years ago?) and do you realise how averaging an exchange rate across a continent locks 1/2 of it in perpetual poverty whilst benefiting the rest"

The euro did indeed have a crisis.

Except the states are not in poverty.

Italy has had low growth, but this is down to decisions made by Italian governments, as are Greece's woes.

Spain has grown in the last few years, albeit slowly, although this is very in line with its historic and pre euro growth.

"Imagine if Italy decided to leave the Euro and defaulted on its Euro debt?"

An unlikely situation, and one which would see Italy damaged for decades, as it would not be able to borrow any further funds by issuing bonds.

What would happen to the UK if it defaulted on its debt? Fantasies are not reasons for decisions.

The UK being part of the EU made it part of one massive trading bloc. This meant that other, non EU countries would have an incentive to base their businesses in the UK because it was part of the EU. Eg Nissan and Dyson.

I am not sure Dyson is a great example of a non uk business and they are moving to Singapore, not a European capital.

Leaving the EU takes us outside of that trading bloc. So if a business wants to be based in the EU, there’s no reason for them to chose the UK. We cannot offer what the EU does.

This is, of course, making the enormous assumption that we can in no way adopt to a different model. We can offer tax incentives and, over time, make different trade deals, including with the EU. And there is a lot more to our negotiating power than just economic area. Why on earth is North Korea still in existence if you believe that economics are everything. We are a significant military power located between the US and mainland Europe, with an educated population.

Now we are cutting ourselves adrift. One tiny little island which specialises in making fuck all.

As you know (probably), our expertise is in invisibles, which are not constrained by distance, and also some high tech, in which we do have some unique products/skills. Currently the 'trading block' model is what we are using but it has drawbacks and is not guaranteed to last forever. It is very vulnerable to any disruption (see all the points you are making about Brexit, but would also apply to terrorism or any kind of meaningful international disagreement ) and also has the side effect of keeping the top 1% taking 99% of the economic gains. This has led to a lot of social unease and disruption which will only get worse.

We cannot just assume the status quo ante will go on forever when considering Brexit.

I’ve seen no remainer here call a leaver thick or racist
Boris - here’s one from Wilberforceraven:
‘None of this would have happened if the UK weren't full of a load of thick, ignorant oiks.

I ask you this, if a democratically elected parliament were to overturn the results of the referendum, how would it be undemocratic?

They would be going against the democratic vote which was the referendum.

Let's not forget who vote in these politicians.

Why on earth is North Korea still in existence if you believe that economics are everything

Jesus wept. North Korea????? Please do some reading up on that country.

“Invisibles” has created an economy which is massively imbalanced. Massively. This will not be enough to offer incentives for investment unless we wish to become a tax haven. Which only works out well for the rich.

Yes I accept the Dyson point but what about Nissan? And large banks wanting to move their bases out of London once we leave?

I think few of us want to change places with North Korea, even if economics are not everything!

The Italian currency was always a mess. Are any of you old enough to remember when Italy had the £It and there was a shortage of small change, so you were given handfuls of sweets? I do.

Dapplegrey That's one, far many more complaints about being called thick and racist than actually happen.

"They would be going against the democratic vote which was the referendum. "

Which was of course, advisory, as parliament is sovereign.

They would be going against the democratic vote which was the referendum.

But not undemocratic. Thanks for clearing it up.

Let's not forget who vote in these politicians

One further point, exactly! As you rightly imply, if the democratically elected MPs were to overturn the referendum, it would not be undemocratic.

Boris,

*Italy has had low growth, but this is down to decisions made by Italian governments, as are Greece's woes.

Spain has grown in the last few years, albeit slowly, although this is very in line with its historic and pre euro growth.*

Well, that is very much your opinion, isn't it? Are you seriously saying that being locked into an overvalued currency has no effect on growth?!

*"Imagine if Italy decided to leave the Euro and defaulted on its Euro debt?"

An unlikely situation, and one which would see Italy damaged for decades, as it would not be able to borrow any further funds by issuing bonds.

What would happen to the UK if it defaulted on its debt? Fantasies are not reasons for decisions.*

Fantasies? Well, firstly, you are showing a lack of understanding about home currency debt versus foreign debt. The UK can print GBP so there is no reason for it to default on its debt. The Italians cannot print Euros or devalue the Euro so, at some point, they may decide it is just not worth taking the pain of austerity (this is an issue right now).

They would indeed be locked out of the debt markets but the financial system is remarkably forgiving (look at Argentina and the Rouble default in the 1990s). They would not necessarily be locked out for that long.

And, if an Italian default is my 'fantasy' why do BTPs trade at a significant (currently 200+ bps) spread to Bunds? As of 5th Feb, the 5 year credit default swap is trading at around 212 bps, implying a probability of default of 3.5% or about 1/28 (far too sanguine in my opinion, but let's go with the market).

Well I have a gun with 27 empty cartridges and 1 with a bullet in it which will economically blow your brains out...so, in Clint Eastwood's immortal words: ‘You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?’

"Well, that is very much your opinion, isn't it? Are you seriously saying that being locked into an overvalued currency has no effect on growth?!"

Go look at the historic rate of Spain's growth prior to joining the Euro, from the late 80s onwards its pretty much in line with its growth since recovery. So yes its an opinion but one based on trend growth, which indicates that it has not been largely effected by the euro as the same trend is being followed.

"Well, firstly, you are showing a lack of understanding about home currency debt versus foreign debt. "

No, I'm not. The UK can print GBP, but at the massive risk of devaluing its bonds to junk level, which then is likely to lead to a default. No the Italian's cannot print Euros, but if they left the euro and defaulted on their debt they would not be able to sell bonds in lira exepct at punitive rates, having defaulted, basically getting straight back into the same situation within months.

1 in 28 means that there is a 97.5 chance that Italy will not default, pretty good odds.

The Italian national debt has been over 100% of GDP since the 70s.

I've decided I don't give a fuck for democracy bollix to the thick, racist old 17 million

I am afraid the only people I know who voted Leave absolutely fit the stereotypes.

Boris - a couple more. I’m next in the queue at the dentist so I’ll give up the search now.

Sorry dapple, but there are far many more "being called thick and racist" comments than there are comments actually doing so.

However, to critique your argument "fuck democracy", the referendum was advisory, parliment is sovereign, and it would not be undemocratic of the MPs to vote against leaving.

However the behavior of the leave campaigners, one who asked a foreign government to intervene to stop our elected sovereign parliament form doing what it thought was best for the country, others who have called British judges enforcing British laws traitors, and another who thought that the Queen should close parliament so that Brexit can be voted through, are hardly defenders of democracy.

Boris,

Go look at the historic rate of Spain's growth prior to joining the Euro, from the late 80s onwards its pretty much in line with its growth since recovery. So yes its an opinion but one based on trend growth, which indicates that it has not been largely effected by the euro as the same trend is being followed.

That does not answer my question and, in addition, prior to joining the Euro (at far too higher rate) there was a period where we saw huge and destructive rallies in the Southern European currencies.

No, I'm not. The UK can print GBP, but at the massive risk of devaluing its bonds to junk level, which then is likely to lead to a default. No the Italian's cannot print Euros, but if they left the euro and defaulted on their debt they would not be able to sell bonds in lira exepct at punitive rates, having defaulted, basically getting straight back into the same situation within months.

The markets make meaningful distinctions in the credit ratings of countries whose debt is denominated domestically or internationally and for good reason. The UK is currently rated (about) AA2, still high investment grade despite Brexit risk. Italy is rated Baa3, clinging on to investment grade (heavily politically influenced) by the skin of its teeth.

1 in 28 means that there is a 97.5 chance that Italy will not default, pretty good odds.

Well, actually 100-3.5=96.5. I know trivial but, if you want to stick to facts, let's get them right.

Would you really enter an area when the chance of a fatal bomb going off was 1/28?! Are you personally loading up on BTPs in your portfolio?

"Well, actually 100-3.5=96.5. I know trivial but, if you want to stick to facts, let's get them right. "

Quick maths error whilst typing on a phone, wow I'm impressed with your skills.

Not so much with your risk analysis.

" there was a period where we saw huge and destructive rallies in the Southern European currencies."

So this period lasted all the way from the 1980s to 1999? Yeah yeah.

The data shows Spain's growth is in line with what it was prior to the euro, indicating that the euro is not the issue.

I'm waiting for you to quote the youth unemployment rate without noticing the different participation rates.

Sorry dapple, but there are far many more "being called thick and racist" comments than there are comments actually doing so.
I do actually agree with this. This tired old trope gets trotted out regularly - often before a thread has even got started. Yes, a few remainers have come out with these insults, but they're hugely outnumbered by leavers accusing remainers of saying what they have not, in fact, said!

what will remainers do with all their spare time once we've left the EU?
I mean, they won't be able to start endless threads about prepping or 2nd referendums, plus interest will be almost non existent by the summer, what will they do all day?

Sorry dapple, but there are far many more "being called thick and racist" comments than there are comments actually doing so.

At the risk of being offensive, I think the reason is that to some extent, the ideology of supporting Brexit is infused with victimhood. The message "take back control" was attractive to people who thought they had lost control, and were losing out in a global world. By people who feel that they can't quite compete in the modern world, and they don't like the changes we've seen in the UK (as a result of immigration).