Why are people being so utterly vile?

[WrongKindOfFace]

Not on here, but online in general. I know tensions are running high, and people have very polarised viewpoints, but the level of vitriol and blatant racism is shocking. I’ve come to accept it as normal from the likes of the daily mail comments, but it’s even on Facebook - with their photo, name and place of work attached.

(And yes, before anyone says it, remainers can be pretty unpleasant calling leavers thick etc.)

I mean, they won't be able to start endless threads about prepping or 2nd referendums, plus interest will be almost non existent by the summer, what will they do all day?

Aren't we only just starting? We have a two-year transition period at least coming up.

surferjet Q: "what will remainers do with all their spare time once we've left the EU?"

Same as you, unfortunately.

Queue for food and pray you don't lose your job pulling cabbages, and that your young adults don't see having to emigrate as the only way to get a paying job, possibly?

but most remainers have been pinning their hopes on democracy being over turned and Brexit being cancelled. that isn't going to happen.
what are you going to start threads about?
and how will you keep things interesting so enough people engage with you? the Brexit board is pretty much a remainer echo chamber as it is and we haven't actually left yet, once we leave interest in brexit will dive even more.

Museum - I think you are right, that a fair percentage of Leave voters were drawn from those felt they didn't have the tools to compete in a modern world.

Unfortunately, many live from the tax take from those who do have those skills. There may be some very nasty surprises ahead.

but most remainers have been pinning their hopes on democracy being over turned and Brexit being cancelled

What’s your view on the facts surrounding illegal campaign spend and possible Russian interference?

That’s the threat to democracy which has been roundly and worryingly ignored. Probably because it’s resulted in the “right” result in the eyes of some.

What will leavers like yourself do? I see so much energy and vitriol going into insulting and name calling - a shame that this same energy isn’t used to actually learn some facts.

Oh dear. Plenty of anti leave vitriol on MN. Nasty nasty nasty

surfer.

In 2014, the Scots held a referendum about their independence.

At that time, and under those circumstances, I felt that would be a bad idea for them and for us, and was pleased they did not part company (though mindful of the disappointment many felt).

Now, with those fires being stoked again, I would be 100% whole-heartedly supportive of Scotland becoming independent because things have changed. New facts are emerging. Circumstances have changed. The time wasn't right in 2014; I believe it is now.

So, would it be undemocratic for Scotland to vote again for democracy now, yes or no?

Confusedbeetle Your spellchecker isn't working.

You typed nasty nasty nasty, when you meant facty facty facty.

HTH

"Oh dear. Plenty of anti leave vitriol on MN. Nasty nasty nasty"

Nope, not seen any nastiness here ?

Just leavers complaining about people being nasty.

Boris,

*Quick maths error whilst typing on a phone, wow I'm impressed with your skills.

Not so much with your risk analysis.*

Risk analysis means looking at risks and consequences of risks in some type of statistical model, not saying 96.5% probability of something not happening is a reason to entirely ignore it (as you did).

I'm waiting for you to quote the youth unemployment rate without noticing the different participation rates.

Are you having an enjoyable debate with yourself?!

@MuseumofInnocence

oh dear, you just dont get it do you dear? Never mind. Some people have no understanding of the ways of the world.

"not saying 96.5% probability of something not happening is a reason to entirely ignore it (as you did)."

Except, you'd hardly call it a significant risk, or highlight it in a debate, unless of course you were creating fantasy arguments.

Its possible that the Italian's may default, but its a very low possibility.

I'm enjoying the fact that you points are ridiculous.

Museum,

At the risk of being offensive, I think the reason is that to some extent, the ideology of supporting Brexit is infused with victimhood. The message "take back control" was attractive to people who thought they had lost control, and were losing out in a global world. By people who feel that they can't quite compete in the modern world, and they don't like the changes we've seen in the UK as a result of immigration

I think what you say has some truth. However, victimhood is very subjective and you are assuming that a global world is a given and that having immigrants do jobs for the lowest possible wage is always a good thing.

There is another perspective that says opportunities are highly skewed and becoming much more so to a ruler class and where a servant class has been created to serve them. The relative share of growth since the IT revolution that has accrued to the top quintile (and even more scarily the top 0.1%) relative to the bottom quintile is quite scary.

And the above is not a random process or a reward for exceptional genius and skills. The two large crises which would have caused a normal adjustment to the above (the 2008 banking crisis and the Euro crisis) were deliberately averted by government policy and additional taxes on the less wealthy. 'Saving the World' was really saving the assets of the wealthy.

It is not surprising, given the above, that we are seeing protests, of which the (scary) rise of the far right is one and Brexit is another.

You could reframe the debate as Brexit being inevitable (in the same way as you are claiming globalisation is) and the remainers who will be most hurt as claiming victimhood.

I think it is far more complex than that but considering leavers as 'idiots' and 'whiners' is too simplistic as well.

Boris,

*Except, you'd hardly call it a significant risk, or highlight it in a debate, unless of course you were creating fantasy arguments.

Its possible that the Italian's may default, but its a very low possibility.

I'm enjoying the fact that you points are ridiculous*

You have a very funny idea of significance. I would not like to go under anaesthesia with a 1/28 risk of not waking up or take a new experimental drug with a 1/28 chance of permanent deafness, unless they offered other HUGE benefits.

The quality of your grammar and spelling (regardless of whether you are on your phone) seem inversely proportional to your level of ire that someone has actually challenged you on substantive points.

I think the reason is that to some extent, the ideology of supporting Brexit is infused with victimhood. The message "take back control" was attractive to people who thought they had lost control, and were losing out in a global world.

Only in part, in working class communities maybe. What about those smug southern England Tories who voted Leave - do they think they have lost control? Maybe, but it's a different lack of control - no longer top dogs, rights being give to gays and blacks etc. instead of them always having first dibs on the spoils.

I would not like to go under anaesthesia with a 1/28 risk of not waking up or take a new experimental drug with a 1/28 chance of permanent deafness, unless they offered other HUGE benefits.

And yet people facing major illness or surgery make exactly these sorts of decisions. I have known cancer patients try every last thing, even though the treatment appeared to have no effect, but then others chose only to go for palliative care. Some would think 1/28 was absolutely worth the risk.

You were the one that attempted to use a very unlikely situation, (96.5%) in order to illustrate your point larry, I called you out on that and you've been waffling ever since.

Your point about Spain didn't count either.

So all the evidence points to the fact that your assertions are incorrect.

Please do feel free to correct my spelling and grammar, pedantry is the last refuge of the witless.

Oh and over 65 your chance of not waking up after anesthesia is one in ten.

Larry give up ( as brilliant as your posts are ) you only have a 1 in 1000 chance of getting any sense out of this lot.

Boris,

Oh and over 65 your chance of not waking up after anesthesia is one in ten

Seriously??!! Now you are showing how little understanding you have of statistics and risks. Do you have any source for this absurd statistic?

Return of consciousness and perioperative death
Overall, only 1% of patients recovered in a high dependency unit or ICU setting (Supplementary Data). Twenty patients were reported to have died: nine deaths occurred during GA, two during deep sedation, and two during moderate sedation (in seven patients, the intended conscious level was unspecified). The cause of death was not captured in the survey, but of the nine GA patients, all were ASA III, IV, or V (three in each category) and aged more than 55 yr (three were aged 56–65 yr, three 66–75 yr, two 76–85 yr, and one >86 yr); the main procedure was general surgery in three, vascular in two, an unspecified major procedure in three, and unknown in one; three were elective and six emergencies. None were Caesarean sections. Three had GA induced in the anaesthetic room, one in theatre, one in ICU, three in ED, and in one in an unspecified location: the overall GA death rate was 0.06% (one in 1718). If all patients in whom the intended level of consciousness was unspecified received GA, the incidence would be 0.12%

Please do feel free to correct my spelling and grammar, pedantry is the last refuge of the witless

Thanks. It is 'Italians' not 'Italian's'. It is 'your point, Larry' not 'your point larry'. In the first sentence of your last post I think you meant to describe the unlikely situation as 3.5%, not 96.5%, and the percentage should come before the comma and not after it.

I may be 'witless' but you have not engaged with my point about the ratings agencies or the meaningful risk to the Eurozone of an Italian default or redenomination. I quoted you the CDS levels and ratings agencies' opinions, but you decided to ignore.

I have responded to all your substantive points.

Surfer "Larry give up ( as brilliant as your posts are ) you only have a 1 in 1000 chance of getting any sense out of this lot."

Your points regarding the risk of Italian debt are not accurate, you used a very unlikely situation in order to make some justification of an earlier erroneous point, and further then cited Spain's growth as an indicator of the impact of the Euro, when its historically on trend with growth over the past 3 decades.

In fact your point regarding the credit agencies ratings is also backed up by the fact that historic credit ratings of Italy's debt are about the same level that they have always been ( they got better on entrance to the Euro) and that the Debt to GDP is of a similar figure as it has been for decades.

BTW, the EU the risk of Italy leaving the Euro and defaulting on its debt is not mitigated by leaving the EU.

I also agree that it is difficult to make the case that the referendum was only advisory

I don't really understand this argument. The referendum was advisory. I knew that. Other people knew that. The fact that some people didn't know that, or are saying now they were promised otherwise, is actually an excellent example of the fact that this referendum was mismanaged to the point (literally) of criminality, and in no sense justifies its bizarre reclassification as binding when in fact it was not.

If Cameron had said the morning after, OK, it's clear there is an appetite for leaving, so we'll convene a working party, see whether and how it can be done, and then put our findings to the vote once more detail is known, the referendum's status as advisory, and its status as an democratic poll, could both equally have been respected. Instead he announced that was that, we were definitely leaving, the people have spoken etc, and the rest is a bad dream history.

It can't be right that the instruments of democracy can be redefined in a moment by the words of one person (in fact, by the writer of their resignation speech). Anyone who thinks otherwise has been suckered by the new rules of the post-truth era imo.

"The Euro and EC May look like a calm sea now but, beneath the surface, there are a lot of icebergs."

Funny that when I went back to look at your original post, you appear to have poor grammar yourself. Ah the irony.

However, you made points in that post that are inaccurate or extremely unrealistic, two of which I have already challenged, another of which was that the EU traps southern Europe in poverty.

Whilst its true that Italy and Greece have high poverty rates, this has been true for decades ( not just since Euro inception) and in Italy is massively increased by the North/South divide.

However Spain, Portugal and other southern European countries are ranked within the same brackets of % of people living below the poverty line as the UK.

Is it the Euro that has brought poverty? Or structural imbalances in countries that had high levels prior to the Euro?

I actually don’t knowanyonewho voted to leave ... every single friend, family member and colleague I have voted remain.

Wow. Are you joking? How can that possibly be true

Same for me. But I live in Scotland .

Actually, I will rephrase that. I know no one who has admitted voting remain.