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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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prettybird · 29/01/2019 15:35

But the EU unlike the UK is trying to protect the GFA Confused

It didn't want to agree a UK wide Customs Union - all the benefits with none of the responsibilities. But it did, to allow time for a transitional agreement.

It is the one which say the backstop - which is the insurance policy to ensure no hard borders - must be non time limited. It would love for there to be technological solutions which, in the absence of a frcitionless FTA, would allow the backstop to lapse (or in the words, iirc, of the backstop, " unless and until it is no longer required" ). But as was repeated again yesterday, There. Are. No. Such. Technological. Solutions. Anywhere. On. Earth. If aliens come to earth and/or they get invented, then they can be implemented.

It has to do that in order to protect its own FTA - the Single Market.

I'm glad that it is not throwing island of Ireland under a bus for short term expediency.

...or do those that think any hard border on the island of Ireland think that it is Ireland's fault for not following the UK out of the EU, to make it easier for the UK? Hmm

If a property developer was desperate for vacant possession on your house, would you agree that you should only have building insurance for a set period, because he promises faithfully that he will protect your property once the insurance lapses? Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:37

MissBel 😂
She has also repeatedly told the EU since December 2017 that she agrees to an NI backstop
No wonder they wanted everything written down in the WA with no legal getouts

1tisILeClerc · 29/01/2019 15:38

{and not return to serious violence }
Is there 'casual violence' or 'recreational violence'?

phpolly · 29/01/2019 15:38

Ken Clarke is the only person (well, aside from Yvette Cooper) that I can even stand to listen to so far this afternoon

Mistigri · 29/01/2019 15:38

That may be the case but surely the EU should be protecting the GFA at all costs.

Unless I am much mistaken that is precisely what the EU is doing.

The best way to support the GFA is to maintain the status quo, and the WA enables that. There is no other solution (except revoke) which does that.

phpolly · 29/01/2019 15:39

And Sylvia Hermon, I should have said. The very few grownups in the chamber

Eatmycheese · 29/01/2019 15:42

@BigChocFrenzy not my personal views just observations.
I'm not a unionist just thinking out loud.

Apileofballyhoo · 29/01/2019 15:42

Is there 'casual violence' or 'recreational violence'?

That would be my understanding of some of the scenes in the UK during the last world cup. It is still serious though.

RosaPalma · 29/01/2019 15:42

Eatmycheese why on earth should Ireland consider leaving the EU just to resolve a problem that is entirely down HMG and hardline Brexiteers.

And Varadkar is not posturing. He is representing the interests of the citizens of the ROI and the citizens of Northern Ireland. NI wasn't given a second thought prior to the referendum and we are now dealing with the consequences of this.

The people of NI support the backstop. If TM did not need DUP votes, the government would be happy to have a border in the Irish sea.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:44

leClerc Until the backstop is signed, the EU will not agree to any trade negotiations with the UK.

We saw their standard procedure before starting A50 negotiations:

. The EU Commission first collect redlines, wishes etc from all members
. Then they condense these to unanimously agreed negotiating guidelines for their team

We won't get to 1st base, because Ireland at least will make the backstop a prerequisite:
they & rEU learned the hard way when they gave way before and llet the A50 talks move onto Phase 2 just meant that Britain kept refusing to sign the backstop.

They won't make that mistake again

The UK will be in a far worse negotiating position after No Deal, with no trade deals with anyone, missing essential agencies .... maybe the IMF basically running the country

Much better to sign up to the WA now and negotiate in transition.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 15:46

I believe John Humphries dared to raise his head above the parapet and moot Ireland leaving the EU too if the reality of a hard border and what that might bring for Ireland and N.I

Yes and Farage was on Irish TV yesterday saying the same. Ireland is used to these helpful suggestions from the British fringe right. However despite the kind invitations Ireland is quite happy where she is and wishes the UK all the best in sorting out its own self-inflicted problems.

Eatmycheese · 29/01/2019 15:47

@RosaPalma I'm not saying Ireland should as I've said these are just some of the things i think people wonder......

And yes if May didn't need the DUP things would be quite different, of that I'm sure. Her desperate clinging onto "power" is contemptuous

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:48

Dreadful as the return of the border would be,
Irexit would destroy Ireland's prosperity as the trade figures I posted show
... and that would likely spark violence anyway.

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 15:49

It's a shame the Humphries interview wasn't conducted in Gaelic. It would certainly have been interesting ....

1tisILeClerc · 29/01/2019 15:51

BCF
My point was that even if they fudged the backstop as soon as any forward negotiations start there would be a lot of sharp intaking of breath and interminable difficulties from the word go. 'Petty' issues like fish and Gibraltar etc will rise up.

BiglyBadgers · 29/01/2019 15:53

That may be the case but surely the EU should be protecting the GFA at all costs.

Surely the UK should be protecting the GFA at all costs yet it is us that the EU is having to protect it from! We are setting our house on fire and instead of taking the buckets of water the EU are offering we are shouting about our rights to chuck more fuel on and then blaming the EU for not stopping the house from burning down.

FFS the whole thing is totally bloody irrational!

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:54

That intelligence report I posted last thread expected border polls in NI - and Scotland - within 18 months of No Deal,
as well as violent civil disorder on the British mainland

NI Polls indicate a No Deal could dramatically boost appeal for a Reunited Ireland, see middle chart

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
BiglyBadgers · 29/01/2019 15:54

Sorry about that little outburst. I had a moment. Blush

QueenieInFrance · 29/01/2019 15:56

Place mat king

MsForestier · 29/01/2019 15:57

It's okay Bigly - we're all frustrated

LonelyandTiredandLow · 29/01/2019 15:59

Found you all! Was on other thread until pick up!
Thought this was more like the current 'blitz spirit' Grin

How much do we want to bet we have a stand off after brexit about "who builds the wall" similar to US?Mexico?

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 15:59

Surely the UK should be protecting the GFA at all costs yet it is us that the EU is having to protect it from! We are setting our house on fire and instead of taking the buckets of water the EU are offering we are shouting about our rights to chuck more fuel on and then blaming the EU for not stopping the house from burning down.

Again, the world is watching. I'm wondering now how the UK is going to face the world in other areas apart from trade in the future.

So, at the UN summit on Kashmir, with India and Pakistan poised to enter into historic negotiations, the Pakistani delegation has protested at the inappropriate inclusion of a UK delegate pointing to the failure of the UK in maintaining the Belfast Agreement ...

LonelyandTiredandLow · 29/01/2019 16:00

Current 'blitz spirit'

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
derxa · 29/01/2019 16:00

'Petty' issues like fish and Gibraltar etc will rise up. Shock

SalrycLuxx · 29/01/2019 16:00

The guardian has stopped updating the live feed. Is anything happening?

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