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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 15:08

Why is Jeremy ignoring the woman Labour MP behind him????

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:11

derxa The EU repects that its member country, Ireland, signed up to the GFA
and has chosen to support it as much as possible - even though it would costs members a lot

The EU is not bound by the GFA; it - and Ireland - are bound by WTO rules.
These mean the EU / Ireland are required to have an external trade border with non-EEA countries, wjhich will soon include the UK.

The GFA does not specifically say that there can be no additional border controls -
which is why the ERG plans all basically put some there, just disguised under the verbiage

Ireland refuse to give up the backstop, because then the border controls would stay for ever.

After No Deal, the EU will refuse any trade negotiations with the UK until the backstop is accepted
because Ireland would just veto any deal without

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:14

When the GFA was negotiated in the 1990s and signed in 1998, Brexit was lunatic fringe territory.

So the GFA negotiators assumed the UK and the RoI would always remain members - and made no provision for this changing

Hence it never discussed goods controls between NI and RoI, just increasing border cooperation

Terms of the GFA
https://www.britishirishcouncil.org/about/british-irish-agreement

In the preamble before article 1:

"Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours
and as partners in the European Union"

derxa · 29/01/2019 15:19

Any border which needs to be put into the island of Ireland because there will be a land border between the EU and a non-EU country as a consequence of the UK choosing to leave the EU is entirely the responsibility of the UK Government. That may be the case but surely the EU should be protecting the GFA at all costs.

Apileofballyhoo · 29/01/2019 15:20

If this happens the Irish are stuffed well and truly and I have started to wonder if the EU will actually follow through on the assertion that they will create a hard border between EU Ireland and non EU Northern Ireland. Will the EU then be as responsible as no Deal Britain for the inevitable recommencement Troubles and the violation of the Good Friday Agreement.

The UK government and some of the media may try and present it as 'the EU putting up a border' but nobody in the real world will believe that, as it's clear that unless countries come to an agreement there has to be a border. There was an agreement made but parliament won't ratify it.

The reasons why parliament won't agree to it are an entirely different matter.

Missbel · 29/01/2019 15:20

Why is Jeremy ignoring the woman Labour MP behind him????
I think it's Angela Smith who is one of the proponents of a "People's Vote" and if so, I guess he doesn't want to get involved in that discussion.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:20

DG That is a point about future trade deals needing NI border clarification:

Quite apart from the Irish diaspora in several countries - UK, Australia etc - mobilising against their own country signing any trade deal with the UK that shafts the RoI and the Nationalist community in NI

Trade negotiators in other countries will be wary about signing off the kind of deep, comprehensive deals we desperately need,
if there is a gaping hole where part of the UK external goods border should be

We'll only get very restricted and small size deals, as with Switzerland & Israel, that I gather are ready to be signed after Brexit.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 15:21

Ken Clarke is making bloody good and sensible points as usual. Bless him, he clearly can't believe the nonsense his own Govt has tried to pull over the past 2 years to cut Parliament out of the loop.

mrslaughan · 29/01/2019 15:22

Dexra- why is it always the EU's responsibility? They Are not signatories as far as I can see..... it is an agreement between the ROI AND UK

Missbel · 29/01/2019 15:23

He speaks well and sensibly, and out of long experience.

Apileofballyhoo · 29/01/2019 15:23

How can the EU protect the GFA derxa?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:24

derxa "At all cost" means either Irexit or dismantling the SM and hence probably the EU

Not going to happen

Already a few grumbles from other EU members that they are being hamstrung because of NI border stalemate
afaik, Ireland will continue to be supported, despite this costing billions to other members
However, there are limits

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 15:27

mrslaughan Ireland is in the EU, the EU has an obligation to support it's members.

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 15:27

That is a point about future trade deals needing NI border clarification:

Let's do some role-playing ... how many countries with disputed international borders are there with trade agreements with (a) the EU, (b) the US, (c) China, and (d) Australia/New Zealand ?

Until the NI border issue is solved - internationally and stably - the UK won't be getting much trade.

Also, the credibility gap for a UK negotiating team that singularly couldn't negotiate the WA going into trade talks elsewhere is too painful to countenance.

derxa · 29/01/2019 15:28

There is no point in people yelling at me Grin. I'm trying to understand.

Eatmycheese · 29/01/2019 15:28

@BigChocFrenzy yes I know they are required to, and I understand why. But the consequences could be terrible.

I believe John Humphries dared to raise his head above the parapet and moot Ireland leaving the EU too if the reality of a hard border and what that might bring for Ireland and N.I ? And the balloon went up .........

Varadker's posturing might be ill judged

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:28

Much more understandable that Ireland & the EU fiigure they can outlast the Uk economically in the event of No Deal.

They expect the UK will come crawling back within months to sign WA terms, after its economy crashes,
especially if the IMF move in and order it.

Meanwhile, Irish Republican hardliners will probably be mollified - and not return to serious violence - by seeing the "Brit enemy" suffering for its arrogance in causing all this.

Missbel · 29/01/2019 15:29

"The Prime Minister is not going to break our solemn treaty agreements"
says Ken Clarke - I wish we could have seen May's face at that point.

icannotremember · 29/01/2019 15:31

I've said this a fair few times over the past two years but god, I wish we were living in the timeline where Ken Clarke had won the last time he stood for leadership of his party.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 15:32

I bloody love him. I'd like him to adopt me as his niece.

He's so sensible and pragmatic and 'country before party'.

Eatmycheese · 29/01/2019 15:32

@BigChocFrenzy interesting and I can quite see the validity of that

It's a shocking mess

1tisILeClerc · 29/01/2019 15:33

Since renegotiation of trade deals when the UK drops out, of course to be practical it will need to negotiate with the EU (and other countries) and under WTO terms all interested parties have a stake in the resultant negotiation stick the boot in, so by being a pain in the arse the UK is doing itself no favours.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:34

@Eatmycheese Even for Humphries, Irexit is the most STUPID ARROGANT idea he's ever farted out in public 😡

As the Irish Deputy PM - and many polls over the last couple of years - have said:

92% of Irish people want to stay in the EU

This is the 21st century and Britain no longer rules the Irish people
Total FUCKING arrogance to ride roughshod over 92% of the Irish population to save a corrupt Tory party

Nov 2018 RoI trade statistics

Irexit makes no economic sense either:
RoI trade value is several times higher with the EU27 than the UK

https://cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gei/goodsexportsandimportsnovember2018/

RoI exports:
10% to UK
49% to E27

RoI imports:
22% from UK
57% from E27

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 15:34

DGR Apart from Israeli ones?
Not many with a population on the border.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 15:35

I do like watching Parliament Live because you get to see some great sensible backbenchers instead of just the eejits that get the MMS coverage.