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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

Westministenders Abbreviation FAQ

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1tisILeClerc · 29/01/2019 17:33

{But we have funny powers in war/turmoil scenarios}
Like the right to be shot at by the 'other side' perhaps?

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 17:33

It's incredibly insulting for people to suggest Ireland would like to rejoin the UK.

I just find it bizarre! They really don't understand the Irish psyche at all if they think anyone except for a few (as in maybe a few hundred people?) would be into that. Ireland is sometimes accused of being insular but there ain't nothing as insular as an extreme Brexiter.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 17:33

I'm beyond annoyed that hardly any MPs think this afternoon's debate was worth attending.

I've watched all afternoon and it's not my job!

I realise they will come back for the votes but surely there can't be much going on this afternoon that is more important than this debate?

IrenetheQuaint · 29/01/2019 17:35

It's becoming increasingly hard to keep up with Brexit developments while still making a pretence of doing my day job! Nearly home now - think I will light the fire and allow myself a small whisky in front of the telly.

(Disappointed by the lack of Snowmageddon, but I guess we have enough Brexitmageddon to keep us busy. )

SalrycLuxx · 29/01/2019 17:37

That’s always a fun one leclerc. There’s also the right to spend the night huddling in a tin shed on the back garden (limited use in modern warfare of course), the right to endlessly hear people tell you to keep calm and carry on (because we’ve not come up with a new slogan for 70 years), and for some, the right to be drafted. Not sure which is my personal fave.

Destiel · 29/01/2019 17:39

I want to try and keep my dinner down so I shan't be watching.

SalrycLuxx · 29/01/2019 17:39

I'm beyond annoyed that hardly any MPs think this afternoon's debate was worth attending.

They’re probably watching too. But really, attending is a waste of time. This is a farce. The pieces have been arranged and the next moves will proceed like clockwork. Might as well not give it a veneer of seriousness.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 17:40

Anyone know what time the voting starts?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 17:40

leclerc iirc, under EU No Deal contingency planning, our ships would be allowed to sail into their waters and dock, for the first 9 months

I did wonder if that was deliberate, 🤔 because they were worried how badly our govt could screw up re food & meds

If we just need supplies, our ships would just dock & be loaded up by the exporters
It would be the logjams at either port that are the problems

I can't imagine the EU would do anything but help us out, if we were genuinely short of essentials
WTO rules don't apply in a humanitarian emergency.

... I hope the ERG's next plan isn't to make the UK into the European Biafra Sad

SalrycLuxx · 29/01/2019 17:41

About 7 pm I think

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 17:42

Being cheeky here.

But if there is any chance of a time limited backstop, it should be for the same length of time that the GFA has been in existence, i.e. 21 years now.

Anything less than that is just so ridiculous. There is talk about two years..... FGS they couldn't organise leaving properly in two + years already.

I am fully in favour of a backstop. If that proves open ended, well we all know where to look as to why? Yep, because a time limited backstop is fantasy land.

BiglyBadgers · 29/01/2019 17:44

I'm off to the cinema at 7pm to watch a screening of a film about the collapse of the Soviet Union. So sort of like watching parliamentary TV right now...

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 17:45

Surprising:
No Deal is predicted to cause a sharp drop in growth for ireland, rather than the recession I expected.

I presume though that the farming sector would be badly hit, whereas other sectors would gain business
So, very uneven effects across different sectors

Let's hope we never have to find out.

Gavan Reillyy@gavreilly*

Budget 2019 projections of Irish economic growth:
2019: +4.2% GDP
2020: +3.6% GDP

Under a no-deal scenario:
2019: +2.7% GDP
2010: +1% GDP

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 17:45

Oliver Letwin "I'm beyond caring about the deal we get, whatever it is, I'll vote for it" Hmm

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 17:47

Beyond caring? Yeah, it's not like it's of vital national importance and will have repercussions for years to come, Oliver.

bloody hell.

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 17:47

21 years has proved to be not long enough Nicola maybe 42 years would be more realistic.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 17:48

Nicola I'd say is should be for as long as when GB insisted (by threatening a bloody war of annihilation) on hanging on to those 6 counties of Ireland.

So that'll be a backstop of 100 years

ClashCityRocker · 29/01/2019 17:50

I may have missed something here.... But haven't the EU categorically said they won't be renegotiating the withdrawal agreement?

borntobequiet · 29/01/2019 17:52

Placemarking (late)
Glitterball!

EdwinH · 29/01/2019 17:52

The ERG is backing Malthouse because it increases the chance they'll get the hard Brexit they're salivating for. The Tory Remainers are backing it because they're delusional or don't really understand it. Two completely different angles to it, but the result's the same: if it passes, it torpedoes the discussions further, and moves the Brexit No Deal clock a few minutes closer to midnight.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 17:53

Ok, order of play tonight, starting at 7.00pm:

a) Corbyn
o) Blackford
g) Grieve
b) Cooper
j) Reeves*
i) Spelman
n) Brady

*If Cooper is passed, the Reeves is not voted on.

Each division is around 15mins long so Cooper result is scheduled to be around 8pm and Brady scheduled to be about 8.30 - 8.45pm ish...

Though I'd expect we may have at least 5 mins slippage by the time we get to Brady.

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SusanWalker · 29/01/2019 17:53

The EU have said they won't renegotiate, but there seems to be a large number of MPs who think that no means yes and who can't believe that they're not going to get their own way no matter how much they stamp their feet and threaten to hold their breath until they die, at which point the EU will be sorry.

icannotremember · 29/01/2019 17:54

Liz Saville Roberts- fantastic speech

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 17:54

Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford
Commons library's verdict on Malthouse compromise - suggests EU could budge despite apparent intransigence:

'If it received an overwhelming parliamentary majority it may result in negotiations being reopened, however firm EU is on this not happening'

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/negotiations/the-malthouse-compromise-what-is-plan-c/
House of Commons Library

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nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 17:56

Pesty and Big Choc,

It was an opening gambit from me! I agree with both of you. Trying to smile, but rictus has set in!

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