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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 16:26

I think the developments in drone technology will make any notion of a "border" impossible to realise. Who'd dare drive along a border knowing that a drone could drop a bomb on you anytime ? Even if you're not having a wedding Sad

With a little careful tweaking, a drone also becomes an easily delivered landmine, or IED.

If the right people have been in touch with the right people, there's the more advanced (quite secret) non-lethal weaponry that drones can deploy too.

The fact that the right people haven't yet been contacted by the right people is a clear indication that (a) the UK government is hopelessly out of it's depth and not only paralysed, but now unable to process incoming information in an orderly manner, and (b) the old adage about being equipped to fight the last war was never more true.

If the Republicans are canny, they'll already have worked out that their fastest route to their political goal this time is to woo and court the NI populace who are turning away from the UK as we speak.

Incidentally, given that all of us on these threads have floated the topic of medicines and availability in a no deal scenario, has anyone read what steps the government has taken to ensure that no nasty terrorist masterminds may have already infiltrated themselves into a supply line, ready to flood the UK with sulfuric acid eye drops, rather than the unavailable Tepotic previously mentioned ? Because if I were a terrorist mastermind (after all, they must exist, we have so many laws against them) I know what I would have already done.

(DW to me: "you're enjoying this, aren't you ?". Me: "Not at all. But project planning, tech, and future planning are all in my job description ...")

LonelyandTiredandLow · 29/01/2019 16:28

YC speech was v. good.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 16:30

Grieve up now...but I'm going to have to mute him for a tele-conference...work does have a tendency to get in the way of more interesting things.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 16:31

NI voters support by 65 : 35 staying in the EU SIngle market & CU, tied closely to the EU

for partly economic reasons and partly to avoid border tension

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
LonelyandTiredandLow · 29/01/2019 16:31

BigChoc but under WTO we need to do checks too, no? So we have equal responsibility?

SusanWalker · 29/01/2019 16:32

Yes Yvette is very good. she's good at saying things in a clear, no nonsense way. I expect she's good at talking with constituents as well.

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 16:33

Unfortunately, after 78 donations, my O -ve blood is now my own. I've been advised not to donate anymore SadSadSadSadSadSad

Waaaay back in the 80s, I was tested as CMV -ve, and for a long time my blood went to a "baby panel" for premature babies.

Since there's a plethora of stats flying around, I wonder what, if any, the correlation between blood/organ donation and Leave/Remain is/was ?

My DM was emphatic about organ donation, and myself and 2 DBs are/were regular donors when it was medically possible.

If there are people reading this post who can donate blood, but don't, then consider this a kick up the arse. Although I have to warn you, that if you think the government is disorganised, wait till you try to book a session Sad

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 16:35

On a very high level, all these amendments seem to be heading for a "blame the EU for not doing what we want" scenario.

No backstop and a hard border will be a total disaster. I am not usually very pessimistic, but I would bet my life that dissidents are (as we speak) preparing for a backlash. It is just so thoroughly unnecessary and very dangerous.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 29/01/2019 16:36

I donate blood!
I also support the opt out donor system. Why it hasn't been passed is beyond me.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 16:37

lonely The UK could choose to have open borders to the world

Like Prof Minford, the main brexiter economist recommends, recommends this

  • and he says this would destroy UK manufacturing & farming sectors, but it would be worth it, in his Britannia Unchained Hmm

Alternatively, the govt could choose sanity instead of hard right economic theory
In which case the UK would need to put up a border.

The WTO allows a period of some years without borders if trade talks are ongoing
BUT
after a No Deal Brexit, the EU won't talk trade until the UK signs the backstop
So that exemption won't apply

So the UK either has to have a border, or have the backstop / SM

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 16:37

Good grief, the panelling needs a polish.

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 16:38

I also support the opt out donor system. Why it hasn't been passed is beyond me.

Because it would need to function in the same country that gave you Windrush. And that forgot to put VAT on the bill for the Olympics.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 29/01/2019 16:38

Grieve also good I thought. Seems a mild mannered and rational man.
Refreshing after the UKIP lot.

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 16:40

Remember how the easiest way to shut down Brexiteers was to ask for examples of the UK being unable to pass a law because of "the EU" ?

Seems a variation on that in future will be to ask Brexiteers exactly how Remainers wrecked Brexit, despite not being in Government Grin

Apileofballyhoo · 29/01/2019 16:42

Eatmycheese - for any body that's wondering about why Ireland might prefer to stay in the EU where it has an equal voice among the E27, and stay away from any situation where it might be a vulnerable smaller partner in trade deals or border disputes etc with the UK - you could direct them here.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_uprisings

We didn't get where we are easily, as the queen of the UK so respectfully acknowledged in her 2011 visit.

www.irishtimes.com/news/queen-elizabeth-lays-wreath-at-garden-of-remembrance-1.876652?mode=amp

It's incredibly insulting for people to suggest Ireland would like to rejoin the UK. I find it incredibly revealing about how self-centred, blind and hypocritical these privileged Brexiteers are, when they insist they must leave the EU to regain sovereignty, whilst simultaneously suggesting Ireland voluntarily gives up its sovereignty and rejoins the UK to enable them.

And that's not even counting comments from MPs about allowing Ireland to go short of food.

I think many people around the world are bewildered by the UK at present. I was also bewildered, as the UK seemed like a modern country with a very strong economy, great international relations, a country that provided well for its multicultural population. National Insurance, NHS, education, culture and all the other things that make the UK great. Why would the UK put all of that at risk?

But if I look at the history of how the ruling classes in the UK treat the lower classes in the UK, and how the ruling classes in the UK treated colonies, I think that the welfare state and the free education and the potential for social mobility and the NHS are the anomalies.

And that makes me very very sad. There were so very many things to admire and I think they are being stolen from you. It started slowly and it's speeding up.

I hope with all my heart I haven't offended anybody with my words. I'm just sad.

Destiel · 29/01/2019 16:48

PMK

LonelyandTiredandLow · 29/01/2019 16:50

The interruption about it only being 1% of lorries got my goat. ANy opportunity to peddle lies! Completely ignoring the businesses who know far more than him with his magic ball.

SusanWalker · 29/01/2019 16:51

Ian Dunt Retweeted
James Melville
James Melville
@JamesMelville
We are all Angela Merkel right now.
Image

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 16:51

Ballyhoo you speak the truth.

TheElementsSong · 29/01/2019 16:53

Agreed ballyhoo!

(And belated PMK).

SusanWalker · 29/01/2019 16:53

Try again

James Melville
@JamesMelville
We are all Angela Merkel right now

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
SocraticCat · 29/01/2019 16:57

Shocking news, Bollocks, but a good reminder to book in an appointment - they'll be needing as much as they can get from elsewhere. My B- blood also goes to premature babies and the earliest I can donate next is mid-April - right in the middle of the gap.

Missbel · 29/01/2019 16:58

Ballyhoo I find it hard to understand too and I really don't get why so many people are wiling to put faith in upper class posers like Rees Mogg and Johnson - after all, these are the people who've been screwing the working classes for the last 1000 years. Here we are as art of a trading bloc that, whatever its faults, has led t a rise in living standards, improved working conditions, environmental protection etc - why throw it away? As for May, her focus on keeping her party united is contemptible.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 17:00

Shipping statistics that worried me

Only 0.8% of the world's shipping (tonnage) is Uk-owned
Less than 0.3% is UK-flagged

Then I understood why P&O changed their flag from UK to Cyprus...
So the government cannot requisition P&O ships for emergency food / trading

No wonder Failing Grayling had to resort to hiring a company without ships but with a pizza website:
Hardly any UK-flagged ships to requisition that would be suitable for the food routes we need

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 17:02

How can Vince Cable make the choice between the deal we have and the deal negotiated sound so boring?

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