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Brexit

Westminstenders: Red Squirrels are British. Groundhogs are not.

991 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/01/2019 23:05

Well the good news is we haven't got a GE yet, and it looks unlike one will be called this week. Purely because we haven't got a crisis point looming this week.

May has officially confirmed plan A is plan B. But says she will try and get more on the backstop whilst working with the DUP. Barnier and Ireland have said 'no'

We now prepare for the Meaningful Vote II.

And a week of speculation about amendments.

Here's a quick summary of likely ones:
Guardian Article on possible amendments

I think the Labour one will struggle to gain Tory support. The big thing about it is leans the party line firmly towards a customs union.

The Grieve one is handicapped by talk of a minority of 300 taking control of Parliament. Otherwise it might have support.

The two most interesting are:

The Benn 'Indicative Vote' as its reflective of the Brexit Select Committee recommendations.

The Cooper-Boles Block No Deal amendment which is cross party and seeks to place a final date on May passing her deal by 26th Feb, after which Parliament will take control. This I believe is being supported by Labour as a whole.

Bercow of course gets to say which amendments are debated and voted on but Benn and Cooper-Boles have broad support so are unlikely to be ignored by him. The two together seem to compliment each other.

The rest of this week is likely to be lobbying on this but otherwise fairly calm. Though someone is bound to throw a few curveball in there with leaks.

The only other thing to watch out for is talk of up to 40 ministers quitting if they are not allowed a free vote on some sort of indicative vote motion. This seems to be being lead by Amber Rudd. But I don't expect this to come to a head until the weekend at the earliest.

In other words, we have a couple of days of calm before the storm. Expect it to ramp up again at the weekend in craziness.

OP posts:
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FishesaPlenty · 24/01/2019 19:33

Good. The more obstacles the better.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 24/01/2019 19:34

Sorry to hear your news Pointy Flowers. It’s always a horrible thing to happen, however well-placed you are to find something else.

Congrats Quiet and 👏 to Destial (who I keep wanting to call MrsDestial Smile

Flowers too for Susan and all on here having to worry so much for the fates of their loved-ones.

So depressed. Have just eaten an entire family bag of wine gums in secret. Brexit-induced comfort eating. Feeling a bit queasy right now - not entirely due to the wine gums.

TheElementsSong · 24/01/2019 19:35

Flowers pointy

SusanWalker · 24/01/2019 19:35

sos is there any way she can phone up and appeal the fine on the basis that it wasn't clear that she wasn't entitled? I know there has been a lot of ambiguity around free prescriptions and UC. At least if she only had to pay for the treatment it would help.

Also a food Bank is not that bad. I had a small food parcel weekly during one summer holiday because of a replace school meals scheme. The volunteers are really nice and business like and everyone else is collecting the same as you.

Apileofballyhoo · 24/01/2019 19:39

Fine Gael are Irish conservatives , and born out of the Irish Blueshirt movement (a totally incompetent facist movement in Ireland). They are defintely centre right, very much the party of the middle classes and much less republican than Fine Fail. I definitely couldn't see myself voting for them in Ireland.

This isn't really that accurate. Fine Gael was a merging of two parties, and the blueshirts were an organisation that sprang up to defend members of one of the merging parties, prior to the merger.

Fianna Fáil are more populist but still right wing. I often hear people say the two parties are two cheeks of the same arse. They are both conservative parties. Traditionally people voted according to what side their forebears were on in the civil war. Fianna Fáil use the tagline 'The Republican Party' but it's meaningless really. They formed after the civil war following a split from Sinn Féin. Their leader had walked out of parliament following a democratic vote accepting the Treaty with the UK allowing partition and creating the Irish Free State. Started a civil war to get his way instead. He lost. Following the civil war Sinn Féin decided to abstain from parliament (sound familiar) but he decided to not - hence the spilt. When elected he reversed the illegality of being a member of the IRA and the other party began to be intimidated at meetings and so on - hence the formation of the blueshirts.

Anyway both parties are conservative but they aren't conservative like the Tories, they're more like New Labour I suppose.

Fine Gael tend to form coalition governments with Labour. I suppose that is more telling about how different it all is than anything else.

Divorce referendum - first one under Fine Gael and Labour in the 80s and didn't go through, second one under both again in 90s, did go through. I think the sale of condoms in shops might have been around this time.

Leo Varadkar himself though is more right wing, and blabs on in Theresa May style about making things better for the people who get up in the morning. The current leader of Fianna Fáil I would think is more left wing.

I can see how the two parties might grow further apart the way things are at the moment with polarisation world wide - except Fianna Fáil are currently supporting a Fine Gael minority government. That says a lot too. Lots of comments about the end of civil war politics and that they should merge.

Sinn Féin have taken seats from Fianna Fáil and Labour.

Examples of Fianna Fáil populism - no water charges after marches against water charges, though they spent loads of money setting up a body called Irish Water in a manner ripe for privatisation.

National telecoms company sold off under Fianna Fáil.

Fianna Fáil fiscal policy - answer to inflation after massive tax cuts (with a modest income I was approximately IR£40 a week better off which was a substantial amount of money) during Celtic Tiger years - saving schemes where the government would give you a whopping 25% interest tax free after 5 years. So everyone spent disposable income on their credit cards instead, thinking they'd pay it off afterwards.

Fine Gael have introduced private companies to 'help' people find work if they are unemployed. You go for a progress report/interview thing every 3 weeks I think and I believe sanctions are imposed if you miss it. (Not sure about how strict they are, probably not very, being Ireland.) I did read that people who found jobs themselves found themselves subjected to bullying to tell the company where the job was so they could collect their bonus or whatever. Anyway I suspect this all costs a lot more money than previous approaches. I don't think the companies provide any great help and people with qualifications are encouraged to do unsuitable work. Leo also tried to do a campaign on benefit fraud but he got slated.

Labour blab on about the squeezed middle. Sinn Féin came canvassing to my house with one man wearing army camoflage combat trousers.

I personally think Fianna Fáil are more corrupt. I'm sure there are plenty of tax evaders in both parties though.

The Green Party are completely useless.

There are a few very left wing very small parties. One is called something like People before Profit.

Each constituency has 4 or 5 MPs and you vote in order of preference for maybe 10-15 candidates. Votes are transferable. Normally you would have got 3 of FF and 2 FG, or 3FG and 2FF with an odd Labour/Independent/Random small party thrown in in place 5. Now it's now likely to be 2FG and 2FF and one SF. (Disclaimer I haven't actually looked this up but FG and FF are still the two largest parties and I think SF is next.

I think Irish people are very pleased with Leo and Simon about sticking up for the GFA. At the same time, it's their duty.

Surrey for the big long rambling post.

Hazardswans · 24/01/2019 19:39

This been posted? Hammond on the loose. No deal a betraying people who voted leave...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-philip-hammond-referendum-chancellor-davos-wef-theresa-may-a8744621.html

BigChocFrenzy · 24/01/2019 19:41

"no new barriers between NI & GB" 🤔

Well, the GFA says NI can't just be handed over on a whim to the RoI
There has to be a referendum in favour, in both NI and RoI

but while there's plenty about building cross-border links between the RoI and NI,
I can't remember anything in the GFA about links between NI and GB

Main problem is, even the preamble to the GFA assumes both the RoI and GB are EU members.
Back in 1998 - and the negotiations started many years earlier - Brexit was nowhere on the political horizon.

So the GFA didn't even consider border checks
That's why No Dealers can truthfully say it would not be against the letter of the treaty

It would however be clearly against the spirit and intentions of the treaty
and Britain's reputation internationally would be hammered

  • despite what most Brexiters claim, the international blame would all be on Britain, as the party which caused any change, even if it means the RoI actually having to perform checks

GFA
https://www.britishirishcouncil.org/about/british-irish-agreement

and in the preamble before article 1:

"Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours
and as partners in the European Union"

Hazardswans · 24/01/2019 19:42

singing why can't we anxiety eat salad? Or anxiously drink our way through drinking 8 glasses of water a day? Grin

Destiel · 24/01/2019 19:43

babooshka you may call me Mrs :)

Spudlet · 24/01/2019 19:46

Flowers to all worrying about their families. This is so shit.

I will look into getting that passport. Half the fear is that I've been NC with my father for a decade or more, and I dread that this might put me back in touch with him. Hopefully I'll be able to get any documents I need without having to do that.

greenelephantscarf · 24/01/2019 19:50

thanks red and others for debunking myths on that other thread in aibu!
Flowers

Hazardswans · 24/01/2019 19:53

Good luck spudlet I hope you can get your documents without contacting arseholes. (Sorry if I'm assuming they are arseholes and your NC for more nuanced reasons!)

icannotremember · 24/01/2019 19:58

@Apileofballyhoo thank you for that really interesting and informative post

Spudlet · 24/01/2019 20:03

Nope, that just about sums it up hazard!

pointythings · 24/01/2019 20:04

Go for the passport, Spudlet. One of the things keeping me going is the fact that DDs and I have those lovely burgundy passports. I wish I could wave a magic wand and give all Westminstenders and Remainers one...

And thank you for all the well wishes. First job application is going in this weekend, found one that is right up my street. The location is a bit shit, but still.

golondrina · 24/01/2019 20:07

Spudlet, I'm Irish through my northern Irish mother, also been estranged from her (no contact) for over four years. If you know dates of birth etc you can just order official copies of certificates online, that's what I did.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/01/2019 20:11

European Parliament’s BSG (Brexit Steering Group) under the Chairmanship of its coordinator, Guy VERHOFSTADTT_ (ALDE, BE):

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20190124IPR24201/ep-brexit-steering-group-calls-on-the-uk-to-overcome-the-deadlock

The BSG reiterated that the Withdrawal Agreement is fair and cannot be re-negotiated.

This applies especially to the backstop, since it is the guarantee that under no circumstances will there be a hardening of the border on the island of Ireland while at the same time safeguarding the integrity of the Single Market.
The EU remains clear, firm and united on this even if the negotiated backstop is not meant to be used.

Therefore, the BSG insists that, without such an “all-weather” backstop-insurance, the European Parliament will not give its consent to the Withdrawal Agreement.

The BSG also reiterated Parliament’s long standing position that it is open to a much more ambitious future relationship, should the UK consider this.
This would not only allow for a closer EU-UK future partnership but could also avoid deployment of the backstop.
It expects greater clarity next week from the UK on its position on the EU-UK relationship for the future.

Spudlet · 24/01/2019 20:22

Thanks golondrina, just been looking at that. I know my dad was born in the UK (I think because Grandda was in the RAF at the time) but afaik Grandda had always live in NI, so I reckon that should do it?

Going to make a phone call tomorrow and see if I can get my birth certificate to start with, then work my way back from there. Fingers crossed.

Best of luck with the job, pointy.

golondrina · 24/01/2019 20:27

If your first link to Ireland is a grandparent you need to register on the register of foreign births and then apply for a passport. If you have a parent born on the island of Ireland you are already irish and can aply immediately for a passport, so check where your dad was born and then your grandad.
My mother was born in Belfast (me near London) so I could apply for a passport straight away.

golondrina · 24/01/2019 20:29

Sorry, misread your message, you'll need to register as a foreign birth first and then apply for a passport. The Irish embassy in Spain (where I live) were really helpful and friendly when I did mine and I rang to ask for advice/forms etc.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 24/01/2019 20:34

Thank you MrsD Grin

Hazard it would be great if Brexit anxiety could make me crave a lightly steamed fish fillet and some kale.

It would be equally useful if it could drive me to indulge in some high-impact aerobics rather than just wanting to wrap myself in a duvet and endlessly watch my box set of The West Wing...

spudlet good luck with the passport. I was convinced for years I had an Irish grandparent and tried my best to prove it last year to no avail sadly. (Still massively grateful to RTB for trying to help Smile)

PCPlumsTruncheon · 24/01/2019 20:53

Flowers for spudlet, Susan, pointy and sos and 🏅for Mrs8 (forgotten your new name,sorry)
I can’t remember who it was but someone posted a link a few days ago of The Times front page after article 50 was triggered and it was basically saying that the UK would crush the EU if they didn’t immediately cede to our demands.
I know a No Deal would be catastrophic but there is a part of me that wants it to happen to see the Brexiteers squirm. I have an image of Farage, JRM and chums tied to a lamppost whilst members of the public pelt them with rotten fruit and take it in turns to stand there pointing and saying ‘Ha ha,ha ha’ à la Nelson from the Simpsons.

mathanxiety · 24/01/2019 20:54

the blueshirts were an organisation that sprang up to defend members of one of the merging parties, prior to the merger.
Apileofballyhoo

Not necessarily the case...
The Blueshirts supported several right wing, anti-Communist, heavily RC, and formerly Pro-Treaty factions and parties in the elections of the 1930s. Support was of the hands on variety. Under the leadership of Eoin O'Duffy they also became a political force in their own right.

The Army Comrades Association (ACA), later the National Guard, then Young Ireland[1] and finally League of Youth, but better known by the nickname The Blueshirts (Irish: Na Léinte Gorma), was a Right-wing movement in the Irish Free State in the early 1930s. The organisation provided physical protection for political groups such as Cumann na nGaedheal from intimidation and attack by the anti-Treaty IRA.[2] Some former members went on to fight for the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War. (It had been dissolved before the civil war started.)

Most of the political parties whose meetings the Blueshirts protected would merge to become Fine Gael, and members of that party are still sometimes nicknamed "Blueshirts".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

The Army Comrades Association was an association of former Free State Army members, who had fought the Civil War against the IRA. There was a period of massive distrust among all parties that had been involved in the civil war. Both of the major political groupings sprang from the Civil War and the mutual distrust and often outright hatred remained strong for many decades.

The election of 1933 saw much intimidation of campaign meetings, which were often held in town squares. (My grandfather was injured while making a speech on behalf of a Fianna Fail candidate in Wexford when lorries full of Blueshirts arrived and waded into the crowd swinging batons, sticks, and fists). The Blueshirts weren't all that comical at the time.

As the article illustrates, the Blueshirts were not merely one of many factions that made up FineGael. They acted in support of many factions, so their presence was extensive, and consciousness of their existence as well as the support they enjoyed among the RC hierarchy and RC priests was a factor in and of itself in the politics of the early 1930s. Those parties and factions that they supported became identified with the Blueshirts and with their right wing aims and ambitions. Fine Gael has never shaken off the legacy of identification with the Blueshirts. You lie down with dogs...

Nowadays it is possible to look back and see the Blueshirts as a rather unoriginal bunch of amateurs, but at the time they looked different. Mussolini was well established in Italy and Hitler had come to power in Germany in 1933 with tremendous displays of public support - rallies, marches, enormous fanfare. There were 30,000 Blueshirts and the fact that they openly copied continental Fascist movements as well as Mosley's Blackshirts was alarming, as was their continued links to Ireland's standing Army. Would the Army support the elected government if a fascist coup were to take place, or would it take sides? This was a significant issue, and it caused deValera to take a much softer approach to O'Duffy than he took during WW2 with old Republican comrades.

The Blueshirts and other fascist and rabidly anti-Communist individuals put their money where their mouth was - about 700 under the command of Eoin O'Duffy went on to fight for Franco in the Spanish Civil War (while the IRA sent members to fight on the anti-Franco side). 7000 had initially volunteered to go with O'Duffy.
Eoin O'Duffy in particular was quite the committed fascist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenshirts_(National_Corporate_Party)
The Greenshirts were members of the fascist National Corporate Party (NCP) in Ireland in the 1930s. The NCP was founded by Eoin O'Duffy after he broke from the Fine Gael party in 1935. The Greenshirts were different from the better known Blueshirts, O'Duffy's followers before he left Fine Gael. Only eighty of the Blueshirts later became Greenshirts. It was an influence to a later fascist party, Ailtirí na hAiséirghe.

In 1936 O'Duffy led a volunteer Irish Brigade to fight for the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War, and retired on his return in 1937. Without him, both the Greenshirts and NCP faded away.

The National Corporate Party (Irish: Páirtí Náisiúnta Corparáidíoch, PNC) was a fascist political party in Ireland founded by General Eoin O'Duffy in June 1935 at a meeting of 500.[1][2] It split from Fine Gael when O'Duffy was removed as leader of that party, which had been founded by the merger of O'Duffy's Blueshirts, formally known as the National Guard or Army Comrades Association, with Cumann na nGaedheal, and the National Centre Party.[3]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Corporate_Party
The National Corporate Party wished to establish a corporate state in Ireland and was strongly anti-communist.[3] Its military wing was the Greenshirts.[3] The party raised funds through public dances. [4]

It failed to gain much support however, with the majority of Fine Gael members remaining loyal to that party and O'Duffy only securing a handful of loyal supporters for his group.[5]

O'Duffy left Ireland in 1936 to become involved in the Spanish Civil War, a fact which led to further decline in the National Corporate Party.[5] The party was defunct by 1937

The Irish Catholic Church's support for the Franco side in the Spanish Civil War complicated Irish politics immensely in the early 30s. The Spanish Civil War was presented in Catholic Europe (and also of course in Ireland, and also in the US) as a fight between Catholicism and Godless Communism, which along with worries about the impartiality of the Army greatly hampered deValera's room to manouver in dealing with O'Duffy and with the Blueshirts. Again, a snippet of family history - my grandfather stood up and marched out of the parish church during Mass when the priest preached a sermon on his support for the Blueshirts and for Franco.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_(Spanish_Civil_War)
A useful article on the inspiration, influences and history of the Irish Brigade under O'Duffy and the Spanish Civil War.

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2019 21:11

Spudlet, these are the rules on Irish Citzenship
www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

The only documents you'll need would be birth, marriage or death. All of which you should be able to obtain without contact with your family as long as you have your father's DOB
If their birth was registered in NI, it will be available via the NI General Records Office
www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/ordering-life-event-certificates

If their birth was registered in Ireland it will be available via the Irish Records Office.
www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx
Info here.

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