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Brexit

Westminstenders: At the point of collapse?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 19/01/2019 23:30

May is in trouble. The Tory Party are in trouble.

Brexit is not in trouble, but we certainly are.

May's problem is she has no way forward.

One the one hand, the ERG will not accept anything to soften Brexit. That's an extension or Norway. Or a second ref. The story tonight emerging of Rees-Mogg as 'peacemaker' is quite the opposite. Its a thinly veiled threat saying if you do not please the ERG we will split and no longer support the PM. They will quiet simply threaten to collapse the government if May decides on that course. Their gamble will be that with the Tories ahead in the polls, they can get enough seats to enable no deal or cause enough chaos to cause accidental no deal. Thus forcing out One Nation Tories from the party.

One the other hand if May does not soften Brexit, rumour has it that 20 ministers including several cabinet, will walk. There is talk of cabinet ministers supporting a second ref and of others supporting Nick Boles proposals and demanding a free vote on the matter.

May on the other hand seemed determined to pursue plan A which is now plan B, in the form of the WA. In order to do this her plan was go for cross party talks and a compromise. The trouble is May doesn't understand what the word compromise means, because... Well see above about the two factions within the Tory Party presenting a bit of an issue to that. She felt the WA was the only way to stop the party split / stop the government collasping.

In addition to this we have Labour trying to avoid a split. Corbyn had his ridiculous starting point to cross party talks being completely impossible for May. You can't take no deal off the table if it is the table. Corbyn was essentially asking directly for a revocation or extension to A50 clause. May could not agree to that because... Well see above.

Corbyn is now talking about whipping against Grieve's amendment which sort to create a cross party consensus. Bizarrely grieves suggestion seemed to be for a minority rather than majority which rather undermined it, by Corbyn's real motivation is about his power, preventing a centre consensus and possible splits in the Labour Party.

Corbyn merely wants to be obstructive, and block everything now as he thinks May and the Conservative Party are doomed to fail and the government will fail. And arguably this is a good and sensible calculation as things stand.

May's next Meaningful vote is due on the 29th Jan. But 28th Feb is pencilled in for a general election. Meaning it would have to be called by Thursday this week.

Will it happen?

We find out, not on this thread, but the next one... Or maybe even the one after that!

PS there was a bomb in Londonderry. And there's talk of a bilateral treaty with Ireland (a euphemisms for renegotiating the GFA).

Brexit was always ultimately about NI.

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Icantreachthepretzels · 20/01/2019 20:49

Manchester votes remain though so places like there aren't likely to be gunning for brexit. Leeds however...

Leeds voted remain.

50 knobs can put on a high viz vest and march anywhere.

Sostenueto · 20/01/2019 20:52

Bet Mays speech on Monday will include blaming Corbyn who didn't bow down and go to a fruitless meeting which she knew he wouldn't because he asked to see her months ago and she refused, and then some dribble about working hard to come to an agreement with all other parties and her own party members and firm concessions are now being agreed and she will continue to present the WA on 29th. Or she will call a GE in the hope of getting a majority so she doesn't need the pesky DUP /to wind the clock down. Or she could shut down Parliament altogether until they agree her deal.

Hazardswans · 20/01/2019 20:52

That's a great read Swedish

PerverseConverse · 20/01/2019 20:54

Icantreachthepretzels sorry. That will teach me to make assumptions.

Icantreachthepretzels · 20/01/2019 20:56

Peverseconverse we won by 50.2% Grin so not a bad assumption. But I'm taking it and I'm not backing down!

SusanWalker · 20/01/2019 20:58

That march in Leeds was a common or garden far right march which has happened many a time over the years. The flags and the woman doing the Nazi salute were proof of that. One man appeared to have BNP written on his yellow jacket - although it was hard to make out so I might have been mistaken.

They call it a brexit really to give it a veneer of reason. But it's just the same old shit with brexit tagged on and should be named as such in the media.

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2019 21:00

Roland Smith @ rolandmcs
Eurosceptic argument - as it was - held together rather well around a single unifying idea: that the UK could not historically, culturally, spiritually, politically go where the EU is heading....to (crudely) "a country called Europe".

Thread.... /1

^Britain's opt-outs and exceptions were testament to that fact.

'Brexitism' then grew out of euroscepticism in the 2000s because of the feeling that despite opt-outs, the integrationist ratchet was still dragging us where we didn't want to go. /2^

Yet the eurosceptic movement (as it was still called), still roughly held together despite the narcissism of small differences. /3

But somewhere in its "policy", euroscepticism had a dirty secret (to match Remainers' dirty secret - more on that another time)...

Specifically, Eurosceptics didn't have a well-formed idea of how to leave the EU or indeed whether any alternative was really palatable. /4

From about 2011 onwards, some Brexiters explored exit methods. EFTA/EEA featured heavily, including for Farage. Liam Fox even suggested continuing CU and single market. Davis did similar.

The IEA offered a Brexit prize in 2013-14 to try and resolve the point. /5

But the IEA competition proved how difficult and contentious the method of exit was. EEA-based entries were kicked out, while the winning entry from an obscure civil servant quickly sank without trace. /6

The IEA competition spawned 'Flexcit' - an EEA-based solution from @richardaenorth, rejected by the IEA panel.

EEA-based proposals were nothing new but from 2013 to 2016, Flexcit went much wider & deeper than anything before. /7

But like all exit methods discussed within the eurosceptic movement, as the detail formed, it simply turned off a whole load of sceptics. Flexcit thus became a minority sport (although Owen Paterson promoted it in 2014). /8

In 2015, as the referendum drew closer, Flexcit was by far the most detailed workable solution on the table even though it had plenty of enemies.

Dominic Cummings and Arron Banks were intrigued by it. Banks briefly adopted it for LeavedotEU. /9

Banks had assumed Farage would be OK with this, not least because Farage was still toying with EEA in 2015. But the backlash against Banks' decision was quick and Flexcit was swiftly dropped. /10

Cummings went the other way and deliberately adopted no plan in particular, preferring to focus the Vote Leave campaign on what it didn't want.

He could see that trying to get eurosceptics behind a plan had a history of failure, and just fostered division among Leavers. /11

Indeed the only thing that united Leavers was to leave the EU.

Despite the WTO Option being dismissed for years (and was why Leavers sought an exit method), it represented "Just Leave!" - the fallback that was closest to full sovereignty and so required little explanation. /12

That is why, in the final analysis, 'WTO' has gained traction. It drives a coach & horses through awkward detail, explanations and nuance which have flummoxed thinking Leavers for years.

It's the I-have-no-solutions-and-can't-be-arsed-to-think option. /13

The WTO Option is not only the default/fallback, it also represents the end of the road for Leavers, where all options and thinking have run out. A scream into the void of "Oh F* This!" /14

May's mistakes were:

a) to follow the Vote Leave playbook/red lines AND
b) to then come up with (or rather stumble into) a specific plan to resolve them.

Eurosceptic history should have showed her that any exit plan loses Leavers' support the moment it is made flesh. /15

Because the awful truth should now be clear: there is no exit option that "works". The history of trying to find one should have proved that. /16

2016 may have been seen as "our last chance to leave", but Flexcit was, in my view, the last narrow & precarious ledge by which to do it.

With that gone, there is no purpose in continuing to try. /17

If Brexit is stopped, there would then need to be a truth-and-reconciliation moment, where all sides and 'wings' of sides (including mine and including Remain) confess to their own mistakes and culpability in this mess.

Only then can we all move on. /ends

They ran a competition to work out how to Brexit, but the winner was a civil servant and they didn't like this plan. So people latched on to an option which was wasn't eligible for the competition and then decided they didn't really like that either.

There is no Brexit which works for the UK.

Brexit is a fantasy without a plan. Which many of us knew pre referendum.

But this lot held a competition to disprove this years before. And failed.

Brexit is just a long string of failed ideas and an inability to agree which has a history of this going back years before the public were ever conscious of it.

That quite frankly, is amazing.

And they are going to destroy the country with their blindness.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 20/01/2019 21:02

Ah cross post Swedish.

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 20/01/2019 21:04

It's worth reading twice though, Red.

DGRossetti · 20/01/2019 21:09

I've thought from the soon after the ref that there will need to a be Truth and Reconciliation exercise.

Except, to a lot of English of all stripes, that's something "other countries do"

TatianaLarina · 20/01/2019 21:11

Despite their political differences, May and Corbyn are remarkably similar in their grotesque rigidity, and their slightly tetchy muleishness born of a mediocrity of character, intellect and judgment.

This. From Chris Gray’s excellent piece.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/01/2019 21:12

Smith pithily summariseswhy many Leavers support No Deal

"It's the I-have-no-solutions-and-can't-be-arsed-to-think option.

.... it also represents the end of the road for Leavers, where all options and thinking have run out. A scream into the void of "Oh F This!"

Hazardswans · 20/01/2019 21:13

Would be nice if we heard that tweet thread from the mouths of farage, Boris, Gove, Raab etc. Or better yet print it on the side of a bus and have the leave campaign ride around in it.

OlennasWimple · 20/01/2019 21:15

I’m flip-flopping between despair and anger at the moment. I actually can’t believe that people are having to stockpile food and medicines because of political grandstanding and callousness

This, from the first page of the thread.

I can't quite believe that so many people are so blase about the potential impact of a No Deal

I was chatting to a friend about farmers yesterday: they really believe that the current EU subsidies will be completely replaced by UK government funding. When I asked where the money was coming from, they actually said that maybe the NHS won't get all the £325m a week, there will be some left for the farmers. And Cornwall and other agricultural regions voted to leave and they must have know what they were doing....

Violetparis · 20/01/2019 21:20

Maybe people are so unconcerned about no deal because of the amount of times Theresa and Tory MPs trotted out the line 'No deal is better than a bad deal'. It's come back to haunt her and us all.

SwedishEdith · 20/01/2019 21:20

Except, to a lot of English of all stripes, that's something "other countries do"

Oh, yeah, just because I believe it's essential, doesn't mean it'll happen.

1tisILeClerc · 20/01/2019 21:22

{historically, culturally, spiritually, politically}
I am not sure about all these as reasons for the UK to not be 'at one' with the EU but there is an element of 'island mentality' that I could understand, a sense of 'not with them'.
Saying this I think that if the UK does not want to play nice within the EU it should leave as the EU needs strong committed players.
The main 'downer' is that the UK is too small as a player on it's own and is highlighted further that it's 4 constituents can't agree with themselves.
Of course with global industry, there is no way the UK can muscle it's way anywhere, it simply hasn't the raw resources.
Had it remained 'best chums' with a former colony or two, it might have stood a chance but those ships were burned long ago.
How to turn an 'isolationist' nation into a collaborative
one will not be easy.
Sadly those who were linked with EU industry already know about the benefits and the smart ones who can will leave for the EU or elsewhere.

Ta1kinPeace · 20/01/2019 21:22

NO DEAL appears to the easy option
its the one that takes Barnier off the telly

GD12 · 20/01/2019 21:24

Please, someone wake me up when all this madness is over and everything is back to normal. This is beyond insanity.

SusanWalker · 20/01/2019 21:26

I've noticed a new trope coming out now that if a business can't cope with no deal then it's not a very good business and can't complain if it goes bust. There's nothing that some of these zealots won't set fire to and blame for being combustible.

PootlesBobbleHat · 20/01/2019 21:29

Thanks BigChoc. You know, leavers are so entrenched I can't even be bothered. But then, I try to respond to their lies, smugness, patronising arseholiness in the hope that someone else listening might take notes and pause for thought.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/01/2019 21:34

susan

Really?

Honestly the lies that have been coming out recently...an influx of posters saying that of course brexit will be difficult...thats what they said all along. When they bloody didnt

And they all voted for no deal and its happening all as they planned..some may have had this in mind, but not all

And anything that goes wrong is people who voted remains fault...for talking the country down one assumes

Ridiculous amount of back-pedalling

Name changes ahoy i reckon

Apileofballyhoo · 20/01/2019 21:35

There's nothing that some of these zealots won't set fire to and blame for being combustible.

Great line, Susan. But yes, terrible.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 20/01/2019 21:39

I've noticed a new trope coming out now that if a business can't cope with no deal then it's not a very good business and can't complain if it goes bust

Seriously give it time and you can substitute the word business for people

GD12 · 20/01/2019 21:41

May wants to amend the Good Friday Agreement

twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1087100144888307712?s=19

I'm done, can't take this madness anymore.