Why didn't we get facts like this in advance?

[Somewhereovertheroad]

HMRC projects additional Brexit red tape will cost UK businesses £6.5 billion/year. NHS estimates cost of satisfying new visa requirements on behalf of staff at £490 million/year.
*
That's nearly £7 billion in annual Brexit costs, or close to the £9 billion we pay as EU members!*

Why wasn't the homework done so we could have known things like this in advance?

assuming it's true

bellinisurge

But that is down to the politicians to decide. God knows who voted for May in 2017 but she seems to be on a power trip, refusing to work with anyone else and refusing to consider any other options other than her deal.

I don't think the referendum was the problem. The problem we have now stems directly from every decision taken since the referendum.

We did know. The remain campaign included these facts, albeit without detailed numbers.
It was dismissed by the folk with the bus with lies on as 'Project Fear'.

Of course we knew. Anyone who did any thinking about how industry and politics were intertwined with the EU knew that getting out would be a huge and expensive undertaking. People chose not to think about it. To say that the remain campaign should have highlighted it more is passing the buck. It was out there, all anyone had to do was look and think.

@Weetabixandshreddies the problem we have now stems from the Leave vote.

what choice did we have - vote or abstain from the process.

Well everyone had the choice to look at the facts. It’s just that vast numbers chose not to. Abstaining would have been better than voting Leave.

The leave vote put the government in a bind, but May chose to tighten the knots to the point that they will be difficult or impossible to unpick. I think weetabix has a point here. Cameron could have said "it was advisory guys sorry 'bout that just kidding lol" and set up a commission to look at how or whether the advisory Brexit vote should be implemented. It would have been politically difficult but legally and practically perfectly possible and we wouldn't be where we are now.

Cameron could have said "it was advisory guys sorry 'bout that just kidding lol" and set up a commission to look at how or whether the advisory Brexit vote should be implemented.

Thing is he made a kinda promise to carry out the result. (I know, I know ...)

Mistigri

Exactly.

People voted and expressed their view. The government did not have to implement it or they coukd have delayed triggering A50 until they were better prepared.

Abstaining would have been better than voting Leave.

So anyone who doesn't agree with you politically should not engage with the democratic process in your view?

In that case I want every conservative voter to abstain in the future because I don't want a conservative government.

How can you argue against democracy in this way? Would you rather we have a dictatorship instead?

Well everyone had the choice to look at the facts.

Yes but how easy was it to find actual facts versus the side of a bus information.

How many people were able to or actually did some research.

I have lost count of the number of people who are now saying "but I didn't really understand" or "I didn't know about the border issue " or "I just assumed the government knew what they were doing!"

Also the number of people who say it was all fine before the EU...well yes but the world has moved on significantly in those years!!

And for the people who are saying just make Ireland leave too There is absolutely no support in Ireland for an Irexit!

There is absolutely no support in Ireland for an Irexit!

They did vote to leave though didn't they, before they were made to vote again.

{Tbh, I've always considered myself as British rather than European.}

Obviously the concept of being British European or Belgian European is too tricky for you.
My point is that Leave voting is buggering up other peoples lives for no significant change.
Maybe all women should be banned from going out of the house? Would you be happy with a flawed referendum that produced this outcome?

{The government did not have to implement it or they coukd have delayed triggering A50 until they were better prepared.}
But Leave voters are saying that the 'will of the people' must be done or democracy has failed.
So you are saying that despite voting for it that you don't care of it is implemented?

{They did vote to leave though didn't they, before they were made to vote again.}
Following clarifications and changes to the original plan, yes they did have a second vote, cunningly disguised as being democratic and sensible.

They did vote to leave though didn't they, before they were made to vote again.

No

But the Irish constitution requires major changes to be done via referendum. These are properly organised unlike our shambles.
Having a second vote on something is normal.

Yes but it was never a leave vote. It was a vote on agreeing to the Lisbon Treaty which is completely different.

So you are saying that despite voting for it that you don't care of it is implemented?

What I am saying is that we were asked what we wanted, it was then down to the government to implement this.

What we are currently witnessing is total incompetence. May is clearly out of her depth. I am just so shocked at how they are letting this play out. I am believing more and more each day that her intent is to make such a hash of it that everyone demands that she revokes it so she ends up with the result that she always wanted.

Who knows - she might be in cahoots with the EU as well - " appear to offer us a shit deal and refuse to budge and ultimately we'll have to revoke it and then we get what we want".

So @Weetabixandshreddies , you think blaming politicians rather than people who voted for it is going to get you out of a poor decision. I'm not keen on tbe E.U. but saw voting Remain as the least worst option. You have said that you were unsure about voting at all but voted Leave. That doesn't make sense. If you were genuinely unsure, why then vote for something that was always going to be the most difficult and the most divisive.
Or did you expect us all to fall into line?

Where did I say I wasn't sure about voting? I didn't agree with having a referendum because I was concerned about some voters motives for voting. Why should I not be able to vote in a referendum that I am eligible to vote in simply because you don't like how I voted?

As I said can I tell people who vote differently in a GE that they can't vote? No of course not.

And if course I can blame the politicians - the voters haven't been conducting the negotiations, the voters haven't delayed allowing HoC to vote on the deal, the voters aren't now refusing to work together to find a deal that all can agree on.

The politicians, having decided that they accepted the result of the referendum, should have then made absolutely sure that they managed the process in the least disruptive way.

Weetabixandshreddies is blame culture personified. It's always someone else's 'fault' or someone else has to do the running.
She put a cross on a voting slip which had as the leave option, several mutually exclusive outcomes, then blames others for failing to make red paint into blue paint.

So this is how Leave voters get out of it. Kind of like Shaggy in that song "it wasn't me".

So anyone who doesn't agree with you politically should not engage with the democratic process in your view?

So anyone who hasn’t bothered to get their head round the issues shouldn’t fuck up the country out of ignorance.

I don’t disagree that many of the decisions taken since the referendum were unnecessary, but if it wasn’t for the referendum those decisions wouldn’t have been possible. That’s what the referendum opened to door to. Predictably in my view.

So the problem is both the referendum itself - the very campaign has caused massive damage and the aftermath.

NHS estimates cost of satisfying new visa requirements on behalf of staff at £490 million/year

Explanation of these figures by the Royal College of Physicians;
www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/490-million-question-new-cost-overseas-health-workers-post-brexit

These figures are highly speculative and not all down to Brexit in any case. For a start - nearly half of the visa/skills costs relate to the recruitment of non EU staff, plus the cost of the Conservatives' election pledge to triple the health surcharge and double the immigration skills charge by 2020. The figures also include the scenario whereby the NHS might have to foot the visa bill for 2 family members in a bid to attract staff.

Also, at present, the NHS doesn't pay all visa/skills costs to recruit overseas staff;
Currently the costs are split between employer and employee but where will the responsibility for these potential new costs fall?

The £490 million/year figure is extremely misleading with regards to Brexit.

Clavinova but if the NHS cannot entice staff from within the EU any longer as a result of Brexit, then of course they would need to look further afield, thus increasing the cost surely ?

The problem is that there is no easy solution. To leave it is either leave with a deal or leave with no deal. May is just trying to get the best deal she can, but the EU have no incentive to give us any decent deal.

What we want is everything, but we are choosing to leave so why should they get to give us what we want as well? No one in government can agree because the country can't agree. No deal is a disaster and any leave deal is going to be worse then our deal now.

If we go Canada style, it would screw over the service industry (just think how much tax the banking industry generates and that high earners in the city pay). France has always wanted the banking hub to move there.

If we go Norway, we still get the perks we have now, but we still have to pay in and get none of the rebates back nor our veto. They would decide even more for us.

The best deal is actually to remain.