Why didn't we get facts like this in advance?

[Somewhereovertheroad]

HMRC projects additional Brexit red tape will cost UK businesses £6.5 billion/year. NHS estimates cost of satisfying new visa requirements on behalf of staff at £490 million/year.
*
That's nearly £7 billion in annual Brexit costs, or close to the £9 billion we pay as EU members!*

Why wasn't the homework done so we could have known things like this in advance?

assuming it's true

despite us not being in the Euro, that we wouldn't be expected to bail out affected countries

We could end up bailing them out via our IMF membership and fee we pay in.

The UK in the EU makes them stronger and euro less likely to fail (but unlikely as its the worlds 2nd most traded currency) & we are stronger from having a v close trading relationship and lots of opt outs & vetoes to avoid your worries.

Clavinova I work in the NHS, it is January, we are fast approaching peak flu season, if someone turns up for their shift, I honestly couldn't give a gnats chuff where in the world they originated from, I am just glad they are there

frumpety
I'm lucky enough to use private health care and I honestly couldn't give a gnats chuff where in the world my doctor, dentist, nurse originate from either - bring in as many professional EU/non EU citizens as you like - fine by me.

What's your point though?

My point is that £490 million/year NHS visa costs are not Brexit facts as stated in the title thread - any numpty can see that from my link.

{Being compelled to remain in the EU, even though they want to leave.}
The EU is not compelling to remain. What it is doing is making sure the buggers in the UK don't smash up the furniture and shit on the carpet on the way out.
The EU is not 'us versus them', we are all Europeans.
One thing that seems to have evaded the thoughts of 'leavers' is that once the UK has left, it still needs to buy a significant amount of food from someone. The EU manufacture and supply chains have been fine tweaked to provide this economically, food in the UK is CHEAP now but attempting to source it from the USA basically won't work as it is not sitting on shelves in the USA, apart from having to transport it so far it is impossible for fresh goods.
The UK has been ridiculing and cat calling the EU for 2 years, a brilliant plan if you want 'deals' at a point when you are on the back foot.
If you wanted a large bank loan, would you start the negotiation with the manager by punching them in the face?

The question is do we work to help that neighbour overcome the problem or run away and hide.

That's great. Then our neighbours in Europe will be working to help us overcome our problems then won't they?

Again you seem confused!

Look at how EU has stuck by ROI, if we were in the EU and facing significant hardship or threatened, then yes they would help... outside, we are just another 3rd country. ... a competitor if you like.

So when we last went to the IMF in the 70s, perhaps it was German or French money that helped us?

Yes they are working to help us they have negotiated and agreed a deal with our PM. They are prepared to extended A50.

We have agreed a deal.

The fact that they won't sell Ireland down the river makes them decent not abusive.

But surely that level of control that the EU has obtained over member states potentially holds states hostage now.
I don't know why you talk about control. The fact is trade deals are necessary if any country wants to survive/flourish. The EU has been very effective at negotiating them. If you think about it, what you are really saying is that the deal we get with the EU is so good that leaving is always going to be worse (correct). Do you want them to shoot themselves in the foot to help us out?

I think the consequences were known, but it's hard to argue with stupid.

Weetabix "You keep saying that we vote on changes etc but the members of the European Parliament are elected by member states. So if some of those countries suddenly start electing far right MEPs who then start changing the very nature of the EU we can do what?
You are all taking the future of the EU on trust. You all talk as though the future with the EU is guaranteed and it isn't. You are all viewing the future outside the EU pessimistically. Well I view the future of the EU in the same way."

I agree totally Weetabix.
I am worried about the future of the EU and think we will be much better off out.

Yes you are 'worried' and 'think' we will be better off.

Any reasons, facts or details?

I am 'worried' about a no deal Brexit. Me and 98% of the economists in this country.
You are 'worried' about the future of the EU. You and all your mates.

Do you have the same worries about far right MPs being elected in the UK?

If you think about it, what you are really saying is that the deal we get with the EU is so good that leaving is always going to be worse (correct).

I'm not expecting deals to be the same as we got when in the EU.

I am talking about the bureaucratic problems of leaving - because many of our laws are linked with the EU they have to be amended, individual trade deals have to be negotiated, the NI border etc.

Just say Belgium wanted to leave - would they have to erect hard borders along all borders with EU countries? It all becomes prohibitively difficult doesn't it?

{I am worried about the future of the EU and think we will be much better off out.}
I think my bank manager is very nice, but it won't make them put an extra £1,000 into my account.

{You are all taking the future of the EU on trust}
By it's own admission a bit slow and ponderous as a administration, but instead you are putting your trust in a bunch of UK politicians that have been lying, manipulating and keeping as much damning information about the true damage of Brexit from the public. Boy, you are in serious shit.

{Just say Belgium wanted to leave - would they have to erect hard borders along all borders with EU countries? It all becomes prohibitively difficult doesn't it?}
Yep, up go those fences, they understand that. They have an advantage that none of their borders have an international treaty saying there must be no physical border infrastructure.

Do you have the same worries about far right MPs being elected in the UK?

Yes I do but we have more control over that don't we? Even if we had to put up with them for 4 years we could organise politically to defeat them at the next GE. We can't affect the political parties or the MEPs elected by another country can we? Yet those MEPs would be able to influence the organisation that we were part of

It would be a pain in the arse for the French and Dutch of course as it only takes an hour and a half to two hours to cross Belgium at 130Km/h as you can cross without even slowing down. Cameras record your passage but even these would be regarded as 'infrastructure' in NI.

I am talking about the bureaucratic problems of leaving - because many of our laws are linked with the EU they have to be amended, individual trade deals have to be negotiated, the NI border etc.
So am I. That's part of it. I don't get why you think they are holding us hostage though. We have done this to ourselves so why do you think we are being held hostage?

Yes I do but we have more control over that don't we?
This doesn't make sense. You only get one vote in parliamentary elections - in your constituency. In the same way, you can vote for your area's MEP but not other people's!

I am 'worried' about a no deal Brexit. Me and 98% of the economists in this country

Where did you get that percentage figure from though?

There are 175 UK based economists on this list, but nearly half of the signatories could well be EU citizens themselves judging by their names - it would hardly be surprising if they had a pro-EU bias.

There is an Economists for Free Trade Group as well;
www.economistsforfreetrade.com/who-we-are/

This Ipsos Mori survey was sent to 3,818 economists in May 2016 but only 639 (17%) replied;
www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/economists-views-brexit
economistsforremain.org/

I am worried too - but I can't agree that 98% of the economists in this country are without further evidence.

175 UK based economists
economistsforremain.org/

Do you have the same worries about far right wing MPs being elected in the UK?
As Weetabix says we can vote them out. Also our First Past the Post system makes it almost impossible for them to get elected in the first place.
Proper self-governing democracies are usually peaceful because people's votes really count so there's no need for civil unrest.
EU countries are not self-governing. Policies such as freedom of movement or the single currency in the Eurozone cannot be voted out however problematic they may be for an individual country.

Cameras record your passage but even these would be regarded as 'infrastructure' in NI.

But they have cameras at the NI border - they were talking about this on the radio the other day.

98% = hyperbole

Rather obviously I felt in the context of the post.

I don't get why you think they are holding us hostage though.

Not just us but any other country who might want to leave but then decides not to purely because the process is so difficult. That doesn't mean that they are staying because they want to, more because they have to.

That really will be our position if Brexit is overturned.

'We' vote for our individual MP and no one else.

Proper self-governing democracies are usually peaceful because people's votes really count so there's no need for civil unrest

I'm really sorry, and I'm trying to be polite but this statement is just total and utter bollocks.

Peoples' votes count in the U.K.? Under FPTP?

A country where a party can win the popular vote but not gain a majority in Parliament?

Also, many Brexiters complain that leave was a protest vote because there is no way their voices can be heard in the present political system. I don't agree with that a leave vote was the right decision but I agree totally with their frustration and anger because their voices are not heard.