OK. Shall we Brexit?

[Miljah]

I am an increasingly passionate Remainer.

But the time has come where I think Britain needs its arse whipping. I feel deeply sad for the 16m (me) who foresaw the oncoming car crash; but I now think the best way we can shorten the agony of the next few years is to let it happen; learn, beg back into the EU, accept the Euro etc.

I can't see any other way through this.

What do you think the leave voters voted for?

What do I think?

They voted for a whole host of varying reasons, and often ones that are actually in conflict with other leave voters reasons.

I do know that if Boris Johnson and JRM had toured the country touting the Economists for Free trade plans, which end ( admitted by Minford) with the destruction of UK manufacturing and farming, that they wouldn't have won.

I think that we can safely say that Leave voters do not want the destruction of British manufacturing and farming. Lots of manufacturers and farmers are pro Leave. You might not sympathise with the Leaver point of view, but to suggest that we want catastrophe and destrction is just tiresome, like saying we want bendy bananas.

"Lots of manufacturers and farmers are pro Leave. "

Because they were promised things that aren't going to transpire if the ERG types get their no deal.

Most businesses supported remaining.

I can't think of a major manufacturer who backed leaving, but I know farmers did, because they were told they could get rid of quotas and rules. What they didn't get told was that under the economic proposals of the leave campaign ( which JRM, Farage and Johnson all back) they would be forced to compete with lower prices from farmers from developing countries, and most likely put out of business.

It really pisses me off when people say they hope it’s no deal because the public need to learn.
Quite a large portion of us voted remain.
We voted remain and we will be fucked if it’s no deal. I don’t think the UK is a great and powerful country. I already know this. I don’t need disruption to medication my life depends on (insulin) to learn this. Same for my dad. Same for my friend who has a t1 child.
So it really really annoys me when people say things like it’ll be good for people to have to eat humble pie. What are we - collateral damage in that lesson?

No, it's a terrible idea. It was a terrible idea in 2016 and it's a terrible idea now.

Yes, it's already cost me my small business, and will hit our family badly in other ways too.
Some of you people come across as Maoists or something - with your destroy and re-build from scratch crap. I'm guessing that you personally won't be badly affected. Maybe the opposite.

Because they were promised things that aren't going to transpire. I think you need to understand that people such as farmers and business people are not swayed by promises. They are not fools. They vote according to what they think is best for themselves and the country and world trade.

Brexity companies include: Reebok, JML, Dixons/PCWorld, Dyson, JCB, Tate & Lyle and many many smaller companies who feel that the EU environment massively favours multi-nationals.

Reebok didn't backl Brexit, the person that founded them did. He no longer owns them.

Dyson don't manufacture in the UK.

JCB backed voting leave because they lost an ECJ ruling over anti competitive behaviour.

Tate and Lyle was one company that did.

Most businesses backed remaining, the CBI backed remaining, as did the IOD and the BCC.

" think you need to understand that people such as farmers and business people are not swayed by promises. "

What a load of guff, of course people are swayed by promises. Farmers will be worse off after leaving. There is high concern about how this is going to effect the industry.

Reebok, JML, Dixons/PCWorld, Dyson, JCB, Tate & Lyle

Dyson manufactures outside the UK/EU.

JCB's main products aren't subject to EU import tariffs and the EU hammered them for anti-competitive practices.

Tate & Lyle refine their sugar from imported cane, subject to EU import tariffs, and compete with producers who refine from EU-produced beet.

Presumably Reebok, JML and Dixons Carphone have their own (probably also entirely selfish) reasons for supporting Brexit.

Dixons/ Carphone - it wasn''t the company it was the founder of Carphone ( who no longer owns it) who supported this.

So mainly the list is erroneous or has certain companies that have vested interests in leaving.

Curry's/PCW were not definitely not leavers. They have stores in Europe and a large amount of Europeans working for them in the U.K. in stores, distribution etc . Dyson doesn't manufacture in the U.K. but he does invest a lot in R&D over here. he is not arguing for a U.K. centric economic model but rather one that extends beyond the boundaries of Europe. His view is that the U.K. will be better off with the freedom to trade worldwide

"His view is that the U.K. will be better off with the freedom to trade worldwide "

But the UK does have the freedom to trade world wide.

Dyson has issues with the EU over regulations regarding how energy efficient the motors on vacuum cleaners need to be.

He won the court case in that - so he was right

*on

Also Boris the Eu restricts trade worldwide by the use of tariffs they are also slow in negotiating trade deals. More than half our exports are outside the EU so freedom to trade on our terms would be beneficial. Whether or not that is less, equal to or more than the benefits of trading with Europe as part of the EU is an unknown

So, just proves him wrong about the EU not being open to change.

Like I said doesn't effect him anyway.

How? They changed as the result of a court case which he fought for years. They were forced to change. Don't get your point there at all. It appears on both sides people swing the facts to suit themselves. Not helpful

"Also Boris the Eu restricts trade worldwide by the use of tariffs"

Umm, so does the WTO?

"they are also slow in negotiating trade deals."

Australia and china took 9 years, Switzerland China took 7.

CETA took 7n years.

All trade agreements take a long time.

"More than half our exports are outside the EU so freedom to trade on our terms would be beneficial"

Actually when EU trade deals are included about 60% of our exports are either to the EU or through EU trade deals. 15% go to the US.
That point is utterly eroneous, oh and our increasing trade outside of the EU? Down to EU trade deals.

"They changed as the result of a court case which he fought for years. They were forced to change. Don't get your point there at all"

The ECJ is not a "they" is it, its a group of judges ( including UK ones) who interpret EU trading laws. This is the problem of leavers they describe the EU as some monolith with a single objective, its not how it works.

. In 2016, the EU1 accountedd_ for 48% of goods exports from the UK, ......
But the share of UK exports of goods and services going to the EU has fallen, from 54% in 2000 to 43% in 2016.

Office of national statistics

Boris where are you getting your facts from

Your link doesn't show that data.

About 44% of UK exports go to the EU

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851

Another 15% of UK exports go to countries with EU trade agreements, and even the US ( another 15%) ones are supported by industry level trade agreements.

Note that 40% of our exports to the EU are services, services are not covered by WTO agreement, nor agreements like CETA, they are uncommon in FTAs.

Boris
'They' is being used as a pronoun. I think you are just being pedantic because you are talking a load of waffle. I am a remainer but I am fed up with the bullshit on both sides of which your points are a good example

My points aren't bullshit.

"They" pronoun.

Actually the ECJ ruling shows that the EU and its regulations are able to change, and we have methods to influence this.

So no it isn't a bullshit point.

It still stands that Dyson had a grudge against the EU in 2016.

They changed as the result of a court case which he fought for years

The ECJ is not a "they" is it, its a group of judges

Actually the 'they' in this case was the European Commission, for it was they who lost the court case and were forced to change the regulations.