OK. Shall we Brexit?

[Miljah]

I am an increasingly passionate Remainer.

But the time has come where I think Britain needs its arse whipping. I feel deeply sad for the 16m (me) who foresaw the oncoming car crash; but I now think the best way we can shorten the agony of the next few years is to let it happen; learn, beg back into the EU, accept the Euro etc.

I can't see any other way through this.

I don't think it's right for us to ignore a democratic vote or bend to the EU now.

This whole talk of bending to the EU, of them being bullies etc is frankly bullshit. Do people not realise what the UK is asking for? Leaving an organisation is fine but what's happening here is the UK asking for special treatment, special rules, which would effectively render existing EU rules obsolete and destroy the organisation (the true aim of brexiteer ideologues). It's not just leaving, it's asking the EU to destroy itself! How unreasonable is that?? The only way to leave without destroying the EU is no deal- but that would destroy us. That's the problem.

The EU bullying us narrative is ridiculous, but its a way of leavers negating their responsibility for the outcome.

Prior to the vote the EU said that their would be no cherry picking of the benefits of membership, or the single market.

The leave campaign dismissed this and said it would be easy and the UK held all the cards.

The remain campaign warned that this was rubbish and that leaving the EU had massive economic risks as what the leave campaign was promising was unachievable.

This was dismissed as project fear.

You won leavers, own it.

I agree completely boris

It's perfectly possible to leave the EU without destroying it and not by way of a No Deal. As an example - the EU have agreed to T May's negotiated Withdrawal Agreement. It doesn't destroy the EU, and is considerably better than No Deal (though terrible compared with the benefits of being in the EU).

I'm a passionate Remainer and I sort of agree, OP. Maybe for slightly different reasons though. Our Parliament is broken; our democracy is broken: we need to start again. And we can't start again inside the EU because we need to figure out, from first principles, what sort of state we want. People like me need to make the case for 'EU values' - workers' rights, benefits for those who need them, social housing, the works. We need explicit agreement that this is how we want to live. Taking our laws from Brussels means we've massively undervalued them. We need to do it ourselves, from first principles. And if it turns out that our population wants US-style government instead of EU-style government, then so be it. But at least at went in with our eyes open.

That's rubbish - Damn. Once we Brexit, the "people" will have no say in what happens. They will lose their human rights, workers' rights, environmental protections, free at the point of use healthcare, food standards, job opportunities, etc etc. Not because that's what they want, but because the Tory government will deliver all of that, for the benefit of a small number of very rich people. By the time we get to the next election, it will be too late to turn back the clock.
If you take away the protection we currently have, via the EU, the huge majority of the UK population are permanently stuffed.

And it isn't undemocratic not to Brexit. People weren't asked to vote in the referendum on the basis that Brexit should happen at any cost. They were told, over and over, that they would be better off than they were in the EU. A vast amount of time, effort and money has gone into Brexit. Now it's time to go back to the country and say - We tried very very hard, but what you were promised back then is totally unachievable. Not - we will deliver you Brexit on the basis that it will completely fuck up your lives and your children's lives and your grandchildren's lives.
Alternatively, a Norway plus Brexit would deliver Brexit and was what was promised at the time of the Referendum by Farage and others.

People also voted to 'bring back sovereignty'. What does that mean? The only thing it means in relation to British politics is Parliamentary Sovereignty. So now we have it. All the muppets we voted to represent us a year after the election are sovereign. So we'll done Leavers, Parliament is once again, running the country. (as if it wasn't doing that all along) Aren't they doing well??

2 successive posts of basically nonsense from Tonsilss. Are you suggesting that post Brexit we will simply stop having elections? Unless you are, how can you possibly know that the outcomes around human rights, food standards and healthcare will be as you say they are?

On the second post, people were asked to vote for Remain or Leave. How some people continually try to subvert that choice by making it into something it never was is very, very frustrating to me.

In that case, Louise, it is quite acceptable to the EU, and will comply with people voting in the Referendum to leave the EU, for us to leave on a Norway + basis.
And thinking that if we leave the EU the "people" will be able to re-form the UK from scratch to make it into exactly what they want it to be is complete idiocy. The UK will be carved up and sold off to the Americans before we can blink.

The US have already made it clear that they will not agree to a trade deal unless we get rid of our food and environmental standards and allow them access to the NHS.

And guess what, that trade deal will be agreed by the Tory government - there won't be a people's referendum on it. And by the time of the next election it will be too late to back out of it.

@Tonsilss my gosh your ignorance is frightening. Please inform yourself and stop the panic.
I'm not sure where you get your info but clearly you don't understand the process.

I am a fervent remainer but part of me thinks we would be better crashing out with no deal.

We're a middling power with an economy built on debt. We've been having delusions of grandeur since the end of the empire and it's time it stopped.

No deal would be terrible. But it would be a valuable lesson for the British people to learn. We need a good helping of humble pie.

The WTO Court for dispute resolution is presently very unbalanced and in a parlous condition - this is not the time to be signing up to that. It still looks like Trump is aiming to close down the appeals process.

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-wto/u-s-blocks-wto-judge-reappointment-as-dispute-settlement-crisis-looms-idUSKCN1LC19O

So you're saying that the UK won't enter into a trade agreement with the US, because our illustrious government is too concerned about maintaining our much higher food standards? And that it won't allow US companies access to the NHS market because it is so dedicated to free healthcare at the point of need? That we will keep all the high standards that we currently have as a result of being in the EU, once we have left? Despite everything Tory politicians have said to the contrary? Because, you know, we citizens prefer to eat food that doesn't have large numbers of insects in it?
If you think that the UK will, 10 years after Brexit, be a better place for the ordinary citizen than it is now, you're hallucinating.

@AlwaysInMotion I'm sure the vulnerable of society really appreciate their helping of humble pie

We need to avoid No Deal at almost any cost. And then (in my dreams) a lot of changes need to be made in this country, gradually and with a political consensus.
After Brexit the economy will be wrecked (already going that way), and the country will be carved up. It will be a very very bad place for those who are not particularly well off.

We're a middling power with an economy built on debt. We've been having delusions of grandeur since the end of the empire and it's time it stopped.

Yup

Whilst I agree that the leave vote was based on a element of ignorance regarding the implications I find it disingenuous to call everyone who voted leave an idiot - many will be as equally informed as the next person. They just have a different opinion. In addition using the argument that we will have no human rights blah blah. This is equally as much bullshit as was perhaps fed to leavers in the first place. Many of the policies we have in place in the U.K. are far more beneficial than what the EU requires us to have. Both sides need to stop talking about potential extremities as though they are definitively going to happen. There is no evidence to support that argument at all. Use the facts don't behave as you have accused the leavers of behaving.

"A radical blueprint for a free trade deal between the UK and the US that would see the NHS opened to foreign competition, a bonfire of consumer and environmental regulations and freedom of movement between the two countries for workers, is to be launched by prominent Brexiters.

The blueprint will be seen as significant because of the close links between the organisations behind it and the UK secretary for international trade, Liam Fox, and the US president, Donald Trump."

*PerverseConverse

AlwaysInMotion I'm sure the vulnerable of society really appreciate their helping of humble pie*

I'm sure they won't. But at the same time the demographics do suggest they largely voted for it...

But it would be a valuable lesson for the British people to learn. We need a good helping of humble pie.

That is distinctly too severe a lesson.

No Deal is not what people voted for. It was going to be "the easiest deal in history", remember?
Those who need to be punished are those that have hoodwinked the UK population, to bring about a right-wing coup which benefits only the very rich.

Yeah "no deal is what people voted for" is a post hoc fallacy.

Its evident that there is no consensus among the leave vote about what they voted for.