Any Leavers here?

[HoyPolloy]

Been reading all these threads on here about Brexit and just wondered if anyone voted Leave?
Fwiw, I did.
If you voted Leave what do you anticipate will happen before 29/03?

Dont be shy, I can't be the only Leaver on here!

{I somewhat optimistically hope that the Parliamentary Debate over the next few days produces some concrete WA amendments to the EU that covers the major concerns that the various MPs}
I can't remember who said it but 'read my lips', the ONLY deal on the table for the EU is the WA AS IT STANDS NOW. They have said this at regular intervals since November. Put the unicorns away and get real. The only choices are no deal, WA and Revoke.

Thank you Bearbehind. I wish Theresa May would come to her senses and put a stop to this nightmare. She is the only one who can but is hellbent on pushing it through.

Signing up for the WA is leaving but without bloodshed, Leavers should be delighted.
In practical terms, 3 or 4 years of 'transition' will be necessarily to untangle all the legislation, but I suppose if a determined government who just got on with the job might be able to do it in less.

OK - you never know - you might get your hope. There's only a few hundred people deciding this next week.

Try again in a decade I think is probably the same as WA as I think that it will probably take 10 years to finally leave the EU.

Clerc I don't do unicorns thank you. And yes that "read my lips" EU stance isn't exactly helpful in all things Brexit - part of my "hope" did involve a little bit of flexibility from the EU, but as you have pointed out, they refuse to do this, so that leaves us with what we have.

And no need to capitalize things - I'm already aware of the EU stance, but if helps you to feel better, carry on.

HateIsNotGood
The capitalisation was for the benefit of the many, obviously not you, who still have unicorns playing on their lawn.
In all probability the EU will be flexible when the WA is signed, but since the material that needs to be negotiated is sumarised in 585 pages of carefully crafted and legally enforceable text why should they consider making changes when the UK government haven't properly defined Brexit yet after 2 1/2 years?
Why are those who voted leave seemingly incapable of saying HOW they see the UK improving when leave actually happens. Where are the big money making and social improvement plans?

As I have watched this story play out I feel pretty vindicated in my stance. This was not a suitable issue to be put to the country for the average person to decide.

Yes! My thoughts entirely. Except it seems everyone knows more than the experts.

The thing about the WA is that the leavers seem to have got most of what they wanted, except on NI (which almost none of them cared about 2 years ago). The EU has compromised - not much, but more than I expected and as far as it could within the constraints of its legal structure and its needs to balance the differing objectives of its 27 members.

And brexiters mostly hate the WA more than remainers do.

Which leaves me to suspect that there is no Brexit that is good enough for brexiters, because what they wanted all along was EU membership (just with none of the costs or constraints).

Clerc - the reason people who voted to Leave are "seemingly incapable" are because until recently posters who voted to Leave were just piled into by about 20 posters all demanding links, a few being very rude etc.

There has been a turning point today where a level of civility has been reached so I now feel more comfortable posting.

It's late for me, but because of civility here's one:

I would like to see the wages of the lowest paid rise and that entry-level jobs are opened up to our young people. That we train the people that live here already in the skills that we need. And please note - that includes everyone that already is here, irrespective of where they were born.

That skill gaps are filled by relevant and specific controlled immigration.

Thank you to all the posters who have remained civil and calling out any posters on their unnecessary spite and rudeness.

Au Revoir.

I would like to see the wages of the lowest paid rise and that entry-level jobs are opened up to our young people. That we train the people that live here already in the skills that we need. And please note - that includes everyone that already is here, irrespective of where they were born

Could you explain how you think leaving the EU will achieve that?

Successive governments have repeatedly failed to offer such training.

Once outside the EU we will still accept skilled labour as it’s cheaoer than training people ourselves.

Added to that thousands of skilled labour who will lose their jobs through Brexit, like the JLR employees.

Seriously, where do you think the incentive or will to train people going to come from?

And as it hasn't been done before there isn't really a precedent for Leaving the EU.

There is - Greenland. With one industry (fishing) and a population of 50,000 it still took 3 years.

Hasn't the brand new blueprint for the NHS just been published, that's entirely reliant on foreign labour...?

That is indeed a well expressed question. From it I would ask why does the UK need to leave the EU to achieve those very worthy goals.
Had it been asked 2 years ago it would have been 'probed' courteously, particularly on the Westminsterenders threads because it is a genuine concern. The issue I and many other remainers have is that there has been a complete barrage of 'we won' comments with no explanation of what has been won, other than a majority of ticks on bits of paper.
There is still a shortage of people suggesting what the UK is going to do after March 29th when the UK leaves. If anyone thinks that on 30 March the government are going to bring barrowloads of cash to help the poor and needy around the UK there will be a lot of disappointment. As the value of the Pound falls, the disaster capitalists will get to work and start eying up failing businesses. Foxy will scuttle off to the USA to sell off the NHS and anything else that isn't nailed down, depending whether the UK does a crash out or WA exit. Other countries have played this game, although my details will be inaccurate, the direction will be the same, downwards.
Venezuela, a huge country was approaching top European country levels of GDP 30 years ago has millions of citizens walking out as refugees to neighbouring countries. They have oil, lots of oil, I think it is about 15p a gallon or less. People carry cans of it to neighboring countries and sell it for a bit of cash. Due to corruption and mismanagement, no food.

A student nurse I took out for the day told me she would be £70,000 ( plus interest )in debt when she finished her three year course, after paying fee's, accommodation and living and travelling costs. Nursing courses have always had a relatively high attrition rate, but always plenty of applicants. So many hospitals have problems with recruitment, is burdening part of the essential workforce with such massive debt the way forward ? For comparison, as a single parent doing a three year nursing course getting a bursary and no benefits other than child benefit, I left owing just over a grand on a credit card.

My sister trained as a nurse in the 1980s - a mix of classroom work and on the job training plus subsidised accommodation and a basic salary. Why on earth are we asking nurses to run up a £70k debt?

As I have watched this story play out I feel pretty vindicated in my stance. This was not a suitable issue to be put to the country for the average person to decide.

Indeed which is why voting yes for the known status quo would have been helpful

You are right Wincarwoo

I, like surferjet have stopped posting on several threads over the past 2 years because people like bearbehind are aggressive.

I voted leave because I think some in the EU are wanting closer political union. I don't want that.
I do not like freedom of movement of people. I don't like open borders. I want this country to be able to decide who can and can't come here. I think immigration should reflect the employment needs of the country, rather like Australia. Whether we have immigration rules or not, or indeed what those rules are, should be up to our own Government not the EU.

I think immigration from Eastern Europe has been too high and too rapid.

I do not like the fact that the ECJ is a higher legal authority than our courts.

I do not believe in all this gloom and doom. It is project Fear.
I would prefer no deal and non payment of any money to the EU.

I fully realise the effect this would have on the GFA. I lost family in the Troubles, so don't anyone tell me that I don't understand the Irish Issues. I understand them all too well.
But, we could have GFA2. The atmosphere in NI is very different now. I was over there for work a few weeks ago and there is a fundamental change. Thank goodness.

I will, however be happy with the WA because I recognise that everyone must compromise or we will tear each other apart. And it is a compromise.
I also this Gove was brilliant today.

Copper Thank you for responding, and in more or less solely representing Leave. Someone had to! You might probably, ruefully agree with me that many Leavers have gone silent because the wealth of evidence against the 'Leave' argument has been endlessly trashed.

Yes, the refutations have become 'aggressive'. That's because people care about their families, their jobs, their futures. Bear has only been one, as have I, pointing out the Great Big Holes. And do be aware 'Brexit' coined the word 'snowflake' to define Remain...

"I voted leave because I think some in the EU are wanting closer political union. I don't want that." Please define what you believe that means. To me, I see 'Better labour laws'; 'Better maternity benefit', better 'worker protections''.

What scares you about "freedom of movement of people. I don't like open borders. I want this country to be able to decide who can and can't come here. I think immigration should reflect the employment needs of the country, rather like Australia. Whether we have immigration rules or not, or indeed what those rules are, should be up to our own Government not the EU"...

It has been demonstrated that the EU effect on low wages is all but negligible... and, as an intelligent person, you and I both know we don't want our own kids cutting cabbages at £2 an hour, or whatever. (So we should be glad that others are, albeit patching holes in their own economies via cash-sent-home). And, please be aware, Australia isn't Britain. Way different circumstances have shaped there to here. I am not talking bollox; I have dual citizenship. And they, too, despite the old 'We're all Ozzies, mate, no worries!' --are encountering racial issues and disharmony. But their population is way younger than ours!

You: "I think immigration from Eastern Europe has been too high and too rapid." Um- do you live in Spalding? Genuine Q. I don't. I live in naice Hampshire. But I pass young girls, with prams, chatting in, presumably Eastern European languages, on my 'less-well-off' high street weekly. But I know they form a tiny proportion of local pregnant teens, as, dare I say, being Eastern European Catholic, they are more or less certain to have a bloke working to support them to the same extent that 'our own' do (or don't), complete with Working Tax Credit and Housing Allowance.

"I do not like the fact that the ECJ is a higher legal authority than our courts." I do. Because our courts are ever more corrupt and partisan. Bear in mind, what you read in the Mail forms a teeny tiny portion of Law. Down the track, you might be very grateful for a Higher, non partisan Court to overturn a ruling made by our corrupt Upper Classes (not all; some).

"I do not believe in all this gloom and doom. It is project Fear." Ah. This is where you show your colours. You are basically stating that you won't listen to any opposing debate, because that conflicts with your beliefs. Please define 'Project Fear'. Ask yourself where you learned this term. Ask yourself the first time you 'deployed' it. Was it when you felt emboldened to try to pull down any rationalist argument that did not chime with you (new) world view? Let's face it. everyone else on that FB page shrieked 'Project Fear/We won, You lost!!' so- it had to be right, didn't t? Murdoch told you so!! So it had to be right! And - doom and gloom. That can only be the work of those who don't know the words of 'Always look on the bright side of life...'

"I would prefer no deal and non payment of any money to the EU.". No. No you absolutely don't. You really don't. Do you understand international finance? It's ugly, it's mucky; Disney will never make the sort of singalong that makes you feel fuzzy at Christmas.

If I can help in any way, please understand that.... OK. A country that reneges on its deals, that walks away from agreements, that refuses to pay up when agreed bills are due becomes- um. Not popular. Becomes like, oh, I dunno,.... Bukino Faso. Venezuela. Congo. But wait! You say. We're white and nice! That will never happen to us! No one will ever force us into usurious finance terms! We're Brittaaan!

"I fully realise the effect this would have on the GFA. I lost family in the Troubles, so don't anyone tell me that I don't understand the Irish Issues. I understand them all too well.
But, we could have GFA2."- ah. So you don't understand, do you?

"The atmosphere in NI is very different now. I was over there for work a few weeks ago and there is a fundamental change. Thank goodness." - I'm sure they'll be delighted to hear that. Do you also post on Brexit threads 'It'll be fine, stop panicking!'?

"I will, however be happy with the WA because I recognise that everyone must compromise or we will tear each other apart" Too late..

As for Gove's thing.. Whaaa?

@surferjet
We have a huge skills shortage in trades like building, plumbing etc. Would a job like that suit your son? I think they're great jobs, well paid, loads of work and not stuck behind a desk. Academic success isn't everything, far from it. I was chatting with a friend a while ago who's a cardiologist, we both agreed that as a society we need bin men a lot more than we need brain surgeons (not that we don't need both) and they contribute more to public health.

I voted Leave and yes, I've namechanged. I don't want or see the need for closer ties with Europe.

People voted originally for the Common Market, not the EU. If it had stayed as the Common Market, I think we'd still be in.
We should have had a vote pre-Maastricht, imo.

The final straw for me was the prospect of a Common European Army. So I voted out.

The final straw for me was the prospect of a Common European Army.

TEU Article 42(2) states that an EU armed force can only happen when the European Council ‘acting unanimously, so decides’. That decision then needs to be ratified by Member States ‘in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.' For the UK, that would require a referendum, as set out in section 6(2) of the European Union Act 2011.

The UK had always said it would veto an EU army, so the EU Council could not be unanimous. Other states would also object (Denmark for instance), and Ireland has been a neutral country for decades.

I don't understand this whole EU Army malarkey ForaSheep or the fear of it. The UK is already in NATO. It is already and still very much committed to a collaborative approach to defence with 8 other EU countries in time of crisis, this defence initiative has been committed to regardless of whether we leave or remain in the EU.

The UK had always said it would veto an EU army, so the EU Council could not be unanimous.

Can we really ever trust anything our politicians say though?

The nonsense of some kind of First Order/Star Wars/Stormtroopers set up led by Junkers is just ridiculous. That is actual scaremongering. Loads of EU nations, Ireland, for example are neutral. That can only be changed in Ireland by referendum.
In a world where Trump continually trash talks NATO (despite the fact that the US is the only country to have benefitted from the 'strike one NATO country and you strike us all' policy), isn't it a good idea to make sure your nearby mates are working with equipment that matches yours?