Westminstenders: What The Hell Happens Next?!

[RedToothBrush]

John Bercow has just spent over at an hour dealing with a Points of Order, in which he has argued that he is defending the soverignty of the House of Commons and that is his duty, not to simply to be a cheerleader for the executive.

Taking back control seems to have rather upset ERG Brexiteers.

As Jess Phillips astutely pointed out:
"People only care about procedures, and protecting and conserving the procedures, when they don't like the outcome of the thing that is about to happen and never when it is going in their favour."

And given what we have seen the Executive do over the last few months in terms of trying to use procedure for its own political gain, this is quite a fair point.

There are however certain constitutional questions this is all raising. And we have a very real constitutional crisis here.

Bercow has ruled that he CAN allow an amendment (because the previous vote had prevented only a motion and a debate) put forward by Grieve to go to a vote.

This amendment would - if it is passed by the house - require May to report to the house within 3 days if the WA fails to pass next week.

This would be a significant victory, if it passed because at present the position is where May can delay reporting back to the house until it start to get to the point where politically the opposition can't influence things, and a 'meaningful vote' will in practice be more like a gun to the head by the Executive, rather than the House of Commons acting in a sovereign manner and being free to make its own decisions rather than be forced into a corner by Parliamentary Procedure and the politicking of Parliamentary Procedure to undermine the independence of the HoC.

Allowing more time for the opposition to hold the government to account, does not necessarily change anything. It just means the executive can not just run down the clock in the way it perhaps has been intending.

The HoC could of course, vote against the amendment.

The WA is to come to the HoC next week.

And we have no idea what the hell is going to happen next.

And a lot of rich Plumbers will tell you it was the best thing they ever done

You think it's an appropriate analogy? Why?

Uh oh, that Seaborne contract causing more problems - Eurotunnel threatening to sue ....

Jim Pickardd@PickardJE*

the Grayling ferry story has taken another curious twist with Eurotunnel writing to the transport secretary expressing “serious concern” about the £103m offer to three ferry companies to provide new routes if there’s a no-deal Brexit^
....
the letter was leaked to me yesterday, it says:

“I must bring to your attention the distortionary and anti-competitive effects of such an action,
which would be a unilateral breach not only of the Concession Agreement with Eurotunnel but...(also)..competition and state aid law”
...
Eurotunnel wants a similar contract for itself.
Otherwise it says it will consider all options, including legal action, against the transport department....

Leaving a job to take up a very skilled trade, how the chuff does that even compare to leaving the EU ?

The WA will scrape through because there is no courage in the HoC for either no deal or revoke.
Berkow did what he did because I believe he is genuinely worried about the country. My, how I admire him

Lemsip, frumpety ?
If you are lurgied, I hope you get well v soon.

If it is an alternative to gin therapy because of Brexit ....

Bercow is imo not prejudiced Remain / Leave, but defending the HoC against a bullying executive.
He has supported both remain & Leave in the past, when the govt has tried to steamroller over MPs

Back in 2013, he went against Cameron and insisted on giving time to a Brexiter backbencher to put in a referendum clause,
which led to the referendum being included in the 2015 Tory manifesto

People will accept any old analogy. I used to play an analogy game with my Crit Thinking students called “cake analogy”. You can use a cake as an analogy for almost anything.
Now I’ve written it so many times it looks like a really strange word.

frumpety I imagine he meant going from Employed to self employed plumber, to take charge and run your business as you see fit, not being told what to do

Thanks BigChoc , am going to try a gin gargle later, fortunately my supplies of the hard stuff are still robust

frumpety I imagine he meant going from Employed to self employed plumber, to take charge and run your business as you see fit, not being told what to do

Yes, he did, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

It's still an appallingly shit analogy and demonstrates - yet again - the Brexiteers criminal lack of understanding about, well, anything.

Hesta Of course because no self employed plumber ever has to follow any rules or regulations do they , all those bits of paper they end up with after training, just to fill space on their walls ? Pick another trade that never ever has to follow any rules or regulations of any sort, where a chap or chapess can blithely wander through their career doing exactly what they want, however and whenever they want ?

Other than PM

They should add critical thinking to the core education framework in light of all the social media manipulation that happens now.

I wonder how things would have played out in WW1 had social media existed....could make for an interesting book/essay.

I get really irritated by crap analogies. Just a way ignoring the complexity of any issue and ramming your point of view across as common sense in a reductive way.

If this was an easy issue it would all be sorted right now.

It is not, and everyone knows it now. Problem is the face saving and power play shenanigans, for what really?.

At the expense of everyone in the UK though. It is ridiculous comedy looking at them all. None of whom have any of the ordinary people's interests at heart really. Sadly.

Crit Thinking got ditched at my school because it was generally discounted re UCAS points. The argument was that it was taught in subject areas. It wasn’t. (TBF, each subject taught its own version, some better than others. But there was no real world, contemporary application.)

I'm doing the accounts for a self employed plumber at this moment.
He does not have to obey anybody

oh

except for

HMRC
GasSafe
HSE
Trading Standards
and me

Jeez ..... MP's are clueless aren't they

BigChoc
The US right is increasingly "if you're not our puppet, then you're our enemy"

This has always been the mantra of the State Department.
Hence the Cold War.
Hence the careful omission of mention of oil from Truman's address to Congress when enunciating his Doctrine.
Hence also, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' - see as an example support for the Mujahadeen, which turned into the Taliban, and ongoing support for the odious Saudi regime.

There has never been any more principle to it than 'if you're not with us you're against us'.
And 'oil'.

The idea that the business of America was business was articulated just about a century ago and it still holds true.

President Coolidge made his famous remark in an address to the Society of American Newspaper Editors on January 17, 1925 in Washington, D.C.

The speech he gave that day was titled “The Press Under a Free Government.” It focused on the role of the press in free market democracies, like America.

Coolidge noted that the press was far more likely to publish propaganda in autocratic or Socialist countries.

He acknowledged concerns about whether business considerations could affect editorial positions and news reporting in a society like the US. But he pointed out the flip side, saying:

<span class="italic">“There does not seem to be cause for alarm in the dual relationship of the press to the public, whereby it is on one side a purveyor of information and opinion and on the other side a purely business enterprise. Rather, it is probable that a press which maintains an intimate touch with the business currents of the nation, is likely to be more reliable than it would be if it were a stranger to these influences.”</span>

Then Coolidge added his famous quote:

<span class="italic">“After all, the chief business of the American people is business. They are profoundly concerned with producing, buying, selling, investing and prospering in the world. I am strongly of the opinion that the great majority of people will always find these the moving impulses of our life.”</span>

It’s hard to dispute the notion that most Americans are concerned about the economy and personal prosperity. And, Coolidge made it clear that he didn't simply mean “greed is good.”

<span class="italic">“Of course, the accumulation of wealth cannot be justified as the chief end of existence,” he said. “But we are compelled to recognize it as a means to well-nigh every desirable achievement. So long as wealth is made the means and not the end, we need not greatly fear it...But it calls for additional effort to avoid even the appearance of the evil of selfishness. In every worthy profession, of course, there will always be a minority who will appeal to the baser instinct. There always have been, probably always will be, some who will feel that their own temporary interest may be furthered by betraying the interest of others.”</span>

www.thisdayinquotes.com/2010/01/business-of-america-is-business.html

There were a lot of assumptions behind what Coolidge said that can't be taken for granted any more.

The prominence of the mainstream press is gone.
The impartiality of the mainstream media likewise.

Above all, the assumption that greed is good has elbowed aside all other considerations in the US. No more is it necessary to put an effort into avoiding the appearance of selfishness.

The inherent tensions in the concept free market / democracy are duking it out in the US at this point - the choice for the American electorate is becoming more and more stark as the Trump presidency grinds on toward 2020 - and the consequences for the rest of the world are underestimated at its peril.

The EU stands straight in the crosshairs of the US. There is only room for one free market in this Free Market Above All administration's world view. It is not at all committed to the idea of democracy except insofar as democratic practices such as elections and referenda can clear the way for the heavy equipment to move in and remake region after region of the world in the image of itself.

teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/the-press-under-a-free-government/
Coolidge's speech.
It's a very interesting document, worth a read today especially in light of the policies of US administrations since WW2, and the preference of the Current Incumbent for the poorly educated.

www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/world/europe/eu-us-diplomatic-status.html

"Mr. Trump has made little secret of his antipathy toward the European Union, which he described in July as a “foe” of the United States when it comes to trade.^

As Prime Minister Theresa May of Britain was scrambling in November to win support for an agreement with the European Union on her country’s withdrawal, Mr. Trump derisively referred to the deal as “great” for the bloc and said that it could prevent the United States from reaching a free-trade accord with Britain.

Those remarks came a month after Mr. Trump, in an interview on “60 Minutes,” said that “The European Union was formed in order to take advantage of us on trade, and that’s what they’ve done.” (The bloc was, in fact, created to expand cooperation, establish European citizenship and introduce a single monetary policy).

“The downgrade symbolizes the contempt the U.S. president has shown for the E.U. and its supranationalist nature,’’ said Daniela Schwarzer, director of the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin.

“In contrast to previous American administrations, the Trump administration has actively tried to undermine E.U. unity, on trade policy, for instance, which is a supranational E.U. competence,’’ Ms. Schwarzer said.

Trying to weaken the European Union may seem to Mr. Trump as an “opportunity to maximize short-term gains for the U.S.,’’ she said. And as Brussels tries to strengthen its international role, again in reaction to Mr. Trump, she said, “a lack of recognition by key partners that the E.U. is more than just an international organization, or even a withdrawal of that recognition, undermines these efforts.”

Ian Lesser, director of the German Marshall Fund office in Brussels, characterized the decision as “the latest in a series of negative signals from the administration regarding the place of the E.U. in the international order.”

“It is very much in line with the tough language from Secretary Pompeo in his recent Brussels speech,” he said. “Washington focuses on states and national sovereignty and the E.U. does not fit easily in this vision.”

The Trump administration has also been threatening a trade war with Brussels and the 28 member states of the bloc, insisting that a trade deficit in goods of about $150 billion a year needs to be reduced sharply. (Washington has a trade surplus in services with Brussels.) The move may be a way to increase pressure on Brussels to make more concessions in trade negotiations over steel, aluminum and cars.

Makes you wonder who is promoting the idea that Russia is the bogeyman.

That article is entitled
U.S. Downgraded E.U.’s Diplomatic Status (but Didn’t Say Anything)

Nicely put @Ta1kinPeace

On a day when ex-security chiefs are leaking warnings about the security implications of leaving the EU and the Japanese PM is warning about trade, there is something permiciously immoral in continuing to lie and feed the delusions of those cozened into voting Leave.

Honestly, there's a circle of hell waiting for these people.

☹️

The original Common Market was created with the blessing of the US,
to build a stronger Europe as a bulwark against Russia and to avoid Germany & France ever fighting again and weakening Europe

Even over recent decades, although the US has sometimes clashed with the EU

• it has no permanent friends, allies, or "Special Relationship", just American interests - this very targeted hostility towards the EU is unique to Trump and the extreme right he has brought into power with him

It seems related to his using his office to pursue his business interests,
plus his preference and admiration for Putin & other dictators, rather than for democratic leaders who must consider their public

Honestly, there's a circle of hell waiting for these people.

Honestly, there's a lucrative consulting position/directorship waiting for these people.

Hoping LouiseCollins28 has taken note of the posts regarding the very clear US policy of destroying the EU, hobbling or even eliminating Europe altogether as a force in international affairs, and muscling in on European agriculture and industry.

Hopefully it won't dawn on her too late that there is nothing special about the UK that will save it from the current hegemonic vision of the US. However, given the post of Thu 10-Jan-19 10:49:26 I am doubtful.

- I believe that you are correct when you suggest that what I would interpret as a "desire" for EU armed cooperation is based on the perceived lack of trust in American commitment to NATO
- That last point is, I believe nonsense. I've heard no suggestion that America isn't committed to NATO. What is it committed to, is not having a situation where Europe's defence is funded by American taxpayers. In this, the US position is correct

If you have heard no suggestion that the US isn't committed to NATO then you have been living under a rock for quite a while.

There will be no need for NATO once the destruction of the EU is accomplished and the EU (and the UK too, sovereignty and all, lol) is a de facto appendage to the US in the way Puerto Rico is - impoverished, not an American state but not an independent country either, and dotted with US armed forces bases.