WA or No Deal?

[bellinisurge]

Asked this on a few Brexit threads and didn't get an answer so asking it separately.
Bored of listening to bad winners whining about Juncker and evil EU and all that tedious bollocks. It's come down to this binary question and which is it.
As someone who voted Remain, I prefer shit deal over no Deal.
No Deal would be a humanitarian catastrophe.
Which is it for you?

In an increasingly globalised economy we will have to trade under WTO rules.

Indeed, and it's beyond me why it's fine for leavers to demand a bespoke deal from the EU but also be totally fine with leaving on WTO basic terms which are absolutely not bespoke. Where's the logic???

Where's the logic???

Tbh honest if after 2 years you're still looking for leaver logic, you're unicorn-hunting. Leaving is all about the about the feelz and the foreigners (and the ££££, for a small subset).

It also escapes the notice of leavers that we have a voice on the ECJ. A voice that is respected and listened to.

We are throwing that away.

We will not be in a stronger position we will be substantially weaker, shouting from the sidelines with no place at the table or on the bench.

It doesn't matter to the Leavers - as long as we slavishly follow the USA, despite not having any sort of representation there, all will be right with them.

Tbh honest if after 2 years you're still looking for leaver logic, you're unicorn-hunting.

Maybe! But I never want to give up pointing out the absurdity of it all.

I was given some Unicorn Candy bath foam at Christmas, would that be any help?

Maybe! But I never want to give up pointing out the absurdity of it all.

It's pointless, although personally I find a bit of gentle leaver baiting quite therapeutic.

There are people you can persuade - often those who have a genuine stake (a good example of this is Gove's change of heart now that he is responsible for agriculture) - but I will stick my neck out and say that 2 years after the referendum not a single leaver who is bothered enough to post about Brexit on the mumsnet Brexit board will ever change their mind. Their perceptions might get reset a bit by a proper hard Brexit but even then they will only move from expecting unicorns to allocating blame for the absence of unicorns.

Wait for the howls when the UK loses its first case at the WTO tribunal

Going back to the original question: neither. It looks likely that WA will fail to get the votes it needs in parliament, whilst a lot of MPs are privately aghast at No-Deal and looking for ways to apply the brakes. Yvette Cooper's amendment will not be the only action out there.

I think we will end up with that classic selection box choice: a fudge.

Well the WA fudge can be steered by skillful negotiation to be either hard fudge or soft fudge.
I suppose mentioning skillful negotiation kills that plan though.

@1tisILeClerc.
The only way we could get less skillful is if we had trump in charge.

We are definitely cursed with interesting times.

How is a fudge possible? At this point it's WA, no deal, remain. The only fudge on sale is in the political declaration (which is not binding and which won't change the terms of the WA).

The WA is only a small part of a 'deal' in that citizens rights and a couple of other aspects are 'nailed down' but the majority is open to negotiation. As far as I am aware the final outcome can be something close to remaining (could with a bit of luck actually be changed to remain with really good negotiation, and the will of the UK) or something far further away from the EU.
What the EU is not prepared to do is bugger around with it before 29 March. By 'refusing' the WA it is a signal that we have no faith in our negotiators (stop giggling at the back).
The EU would like the UK to remain, but it can't be done at the expense of damaging the principles of the EU. what the EU will not stand for is another 2 or more years of the UK buggering about. With the WA signed the continued payments during the transition period would (hopefully) sharpen the minds of the UK negotiators while not destroying the EU while it does so.
If we send the 7 dwarves along as the UK negotiating team then the UK is stuffed, but even if we were to exit with no deal, the same negotiating team will be sorting out all the fantastic deals with the USA and China etc,,,,,,,,,we are stuffed either way. Remember, whatever happens (except revoke) UK negotiators need to be on fire to start on 30 March.
Never mind all the Westminster bollocks at the moment, REAL negotiations HAVE to start on March 30th. With WA passed, they could have 10 minutes to get their coffee first.

For sure an eventual fudge is possible if the WA is passed, but there is no fudge on the menu between now and March. At best there will be a bit of help from the EU in coating a bitter pill.

The House of Commons has just voted to prevent a no deal brexit.

Yaralie it won't prevent a No Deal Brexit. it just stops the government throwing money at it without a vote. Which they won't win - but if they end up not voting for anything, No Deal is still the default.

Still, I do love seeing TM lose one.

I'm a leave voter and I think remainers and government shouldn't complain or be horrified by a no deal. Their arrogance in assuming it was a done deal before the question was asked, has contributed to the outcome. If Remain had gone to the areas with higher percentage of leavers and tried to understand why we wanted out and explain why staying in would be best, rather than patronising us, then things probably would have been different. The fact that everyone was so shocked and supply contingencies were not seriously considered before the vote highlights this. Someone said that leave voters would blame remain if art.50 is revoked, well I bet my bottom dollar that remainers will be blaming leavers for a no deal. Reality though is that culpability, should there be any, is equally shared by both sides in this.

well I bet my bottom dollar that remainers will be blaming leavers for a no deal

Who do you think we should blame? 😂

Surely you have learned enough in the last two years to realise that you were fooled by leave liars who have their own agenda!

If you are a billionaire tax exile, stick to supporting leave, otherwise see the light, and accept that leaving the EU under any deal, let alone no-deal will leave you, your children and your grandchildren much worse off.

You seem to be suggesting that we have No Deal to serve those naughty Remainers right. Doesn't that strike as childish and petulant?

The reality is that 'leavers' voted for a range of things that are not possible in the timescale. IF the leave campaigns had said that yes we can leave but it will cost (say £2000) per person per year, 2 Million redundancies and take 8 years to untangle the many treaties, which is roughly what it might take overall, would you have voted for it?
It wouldn't have looked good on the ballot paper but as we are seeing, this is an approximation to what is happening NOW.

My point is, remainers seem very happy to be childish petulant towards leavers and to say we would blame and carp if art. 50 is revoked, but they are always forgetting that if their arguments were made as flawlessly and cleverly as they believe them to have been, the answer would have been different.

I’m actually coming to think the problem is neither Leavers or remainers but actually those in power who manipulated the whole process.

Nope @Justheretogiveaviewfrommyworld , I don't understand how what you say amounts to a reason to No Deal. The Leave solution is WA.

I agree with you re the difficulty of the timescales,1, but I would also said then, that the bollot paper failed to illustrate the realities of Remain either. The EU is not static and never can be, so what remin means is equally as unknown as the outcome of Brexit.