Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Its Really Not Getting Any Better Is It?

991 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2018 23:10

We are STILL on collision course for no deal.

Christmas is here, and whilst we might appreciate the respite from Brexit News, its really a luxury we can't afford.

The meaningful vote is scheduled for January.

Chaos is scheduled for shortly after.

I wish you all a happy and enjoyable Christmas.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2018 00:13

James Patrick@J_amesp

To be honest, failing to deal with antisemitism while being no more use than a chocolate fireguard did it for me.
The misogyny just tops the cake.^

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2018 00:16

https://www.channel4.com/news/largest-dover-customs-firm-says-no-deal-could-create-armageddon-for-uk

The biggest customs firm inside Dover tells Channel 4 News that crashing out of Europe without a deal would create Armageddon for the U.K.

– warning that Dover had no chance of being ready to cope with the millions of additional checks.

Sostenueto · 20/12/2018 00:18

Peoples experiences differ BigChocFrenzy which understandably colours opinions. Flowers

Sostenueto · 20/12/2018 00:26

Well must toddle off to bed with the pup,no longer a pup. Keep safe merry Xmas and remember the spirit of Xmas is in the giving and not in the getting.Xmas Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2018 00:33

Don’t blame Ireland for beating Britain in the Brexit negotiations

Excellent analysis: The Irish played their socks off; the UK just told itself how great it was

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/dont-blame-ireland-for-beating-britain-in-the-brexit-negotiations/amp/?

Back in November 2017, according to two sources cited by RTE’s Tony Connelly,
Theresa May told Donald Tusk that all this nonsense about the Irish question was a deplorable distraction.
After all, the UK is a ‘much bigger and more important country than Ireland’.

< such arrogance shows precisely how she screwed up the negotiations >
Know thy place, Paddy.
.....
According to O’Neill, however,
Varadkar holds ‘the elitist, practically imperial belief that what is good for his government – his foreign government – is more important than what the British people themselves, in their millions, voted for’.
....
it would be strange indeed if Varadkar took the view that the British interest in Brexit was more important to Ireland
than the Irish interest in Brexit 🤦🏻‍♀️
....
It is a sad part of Brexit that so many people who demonstrate no willingness or ability to hear what is being said in other European capitals assume this lack of interest or deficit of attention also applies in the other direction.
They can hear us, you know, even if we are not interested in hearing them.
In the Irish case this is particularly inexcusable; they even speak a form of English over there.

From the outset, the Irish were concerned the UK would successfully cleave the Irish interest from the EU’s other, larger, interest
in coming to a swift and mutually satisfactory deal with the UK.

Preventing that must rank as one of the most successful acts of Irish diplomacy in living memory.

For all that the EU has a certain sympathy for the interests of small countries, that sympathy is not inexhaustible.
Leave no country behind may be the official theory; in practice matters are often arranged differently.

Indeed, that supposition underpinned the Brexiteer belief that Berlin, not Brussels, would be the city in which the real action could be found.^

From the outset, the Irish were concerned the UK would successfully cleave the Irish interest from the EU’s other, larger, interest in coming to a swift and mutually satisfactory deal with the UK.

Preventing that must rank as one of the most successful acts of Irish diplomacy in living memory.

For all that the EU has a certain sympathy for the interests of small countries, that sympathy is not inexhaustible.
Leave no country behind may be the official theory; in practice matters are often arranged differently.

Indeed, that supposition underpinned the Brexiteer belief that Berlin, not Brussels, would be the city in which the real action could be found.

Unlike the British, however, the Irish deployed the full force of their diplomatic resources to the struggle
and, lo, that has proved a wise decision.

They took Brexit seriously at a time when, it being neither popular nor profitable, the British themselves were not inclined to do so.
Disgraceful and characteristic Hibernian subterfuge, but there you have it.
....
If there has been a hardening of Irish tone, it is at least in part the consequence of how the Brexiteers have talked about Ireland.
In terms of policy, however, there has been little substantive difference between Varadkar’s position and that taken by his predecessor Enda Kenny.
....
I am not so sure it is really deplorable for Ireland to advance its interpretation of the national interest.

Again, for the slow learners, Ireland is own country, possesses own interest.

It is a small country, right enough, but not so very far away it’s unreasonable to expect anyone to know anything about it.

Grinchly · 20/12/2018 00:54

Oh what the actual fuck.
Stupid man/ woman/ people whatever.
She is a stupid woman! they are stupid people! He is a stupid man!
He isn't accused of saying stupid cow/witch/ bitch or worse
But anyway why why, is parliamentary time taken up with this non argument in this time of utter and desperate national crisis?

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2018 02:04

What is worrying too:

he lied about it, even though we (nearly) all know he said it.
Does he think we are stupid and / or is he very stupid himself ?

Living down to the bad judgement I expect from him.

lonelyplanetmum · 20/12/2018 06:43

The country is in crisis and party leaders ( both of whom have no viable credible plan) bray, goad and mutter at each other in pantomime in an adversarial two sided chamber.

It's embarrassing.

apricotjam389 · 20/12/2018 06:50

Thank you Hester It's always uplifting and interesting. Nice people there. Usually several MPs come out to support us. Lots and lots of foreign press (seldom any UK press) and a constant stream of well wishers, wanting to thank us or join us for a while. Talking about NATO; we have a fair few of #VeteransforEU, many ex military, who stand with us ,including Steve. They have also posted on twitter that they will not enforce any brexit m
Thank you for these threads. Interesting source.

lonelyplanetmum · 20/12/2018 06:53

Meanwhile I'm no better as in adversarial style I battle with a Leaver I know on FB. How to I respond in a collegiate way that will actually work to this message, directed at me:

" Well I hope and pray we leave on no deal.We will survive as we did before and will again.
I heard yesterday from an ex UK man living in The Netherlands who has to pay £400 per month for two people’s rubbish health care. That's the EU , the guy said get out as soon as possible because the EU is in a mess. Merkel is going to lead the whole of Europe . The EU has not been audited for 17 years.! Wonder why? It's a gravy train for so many politicians."

I know that no deal politicians are illogical fantasists.

I also know Dutch health care is set by the national government not the EU.

I know that whilst any large organisation can be criticised the EU is fairly efficient and has achieved many great things in the spheres of environmental and workers' rights etc.

I know Merkel has stepped down.

I know the EU only has limited spheres of operation and is run jointly and collegiately.

I know that whilst you get dodgy members like Farage most EU expenses are transparent and accounted for.

BUT how do I get that all across especially to her many followers?

Annandale · 20/12/2018 07:08

My answer would be something like - If your greatest hope is survival, ok. I am hoping for better than that, which is why I want a deal. With an organisation that is run pretty well (including being audited regularly) by its 28 members including us, 28 members who also have national governments who set up things like healthcare.

lonelyplanetmum · 20/12/2018 07:13

Thanks- that's calmer than what I'd like to say.

HesterThrale · 20/12/2018 07:31

Do we think this is a useful way to compare the possible outcomes?

COMPARE THE BREXIT
We've studied Theresa May's withdrawal agreement to see how it compares to a no deal Brexit or remaining in the EU. See below how they differ on the key issues that will affect people's daytoday lives.

comparethebrexit.com/

Glitteryfrog · 20/12/2018 07:39

@Grinchly I couldn't agree more.
I'm sure far worse things have been muttered under breath in Parliament.
They're all behaving like a bunch of over tired school children at the end of term.
Except they're supposed to be the grown ups of the country.

borntobequiet · 20/12/2018 07:57

I’m in London for a couple of days between Xmas and NY, for once not babysitting but free to enjoy some cultural activities on my own. I have a low tolerance for culture, however, so may spend some time with my little EU flag outside the HOC in the company of Mr Bray et al.

Loletta · 20/12/2018 08:04

Another one who agrees with @Grinchly 100%

borntobequiet · 20/12/2018 08:07

That Compare the Brexit site is great! I will share widely (as far as I can as Mumsnet is really the only social media I do).

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2018 08:09

lonely
1 ) Merkel has only stepped down as party leader
She remains Chancellor - with a higher approval rating than her party - and will stay on for some time

  • in a poll last week, 68% of CDU voters would like Angela Merkel to remain Chancellor until the end of the current legislative period in 2021.
  1. The NHS spends per person in the UK £2,900 annually, which is over £240 per month That UK man in the Netherlands compliaing about paying £200 per person may have been subsidised in the UK by other people's taxes i.e. in typical rightwing Brexiter language he's a "scrounger"

The healthcare in the EU is generally of higher quality than the NHS,
because they haven't run down their services for decades and they generally have more doctors, hospital beds etc per 100,000 population

In Germany, I have always been able to get same day GP appointments - a GP who will spend 20 minutes chatting to me about every aspect of my health
I have received a far higher standard of care and with almost no waiting time from GPs, eye specialists, ear specialists and aftercare when I broke my ankle ligaments

  1. The money that the EU can't audit fully is the small % of projects that a few national governments spend their regional development money on.
    Plus as you mention, UKIP misusing their European Parliament funds

  2. Since he's so unhappy in the Netherlands, we can assume he will be happy to return to the UK after Brexit ?

EtVoilaBrexit · 20/12/2018 08:10

So Leave.EU used communication warfare methods from Caimbridge Analytica.....
But somehow that’s ok.

We now have a country tearing itself apart but somehow that’s ok too because it only reflects ‘the will of the people’ (Half of it anyway), regardless of whether they have been manipulated or not.

Meanwhile we are happy to let some people been so aggressive that some MPs need two police officers to protect them when they are in the streets. And somehow that’s ok too and these people are not prosecuted.

Westministenders: Its Really Not Getting Any Better Is It?
EtVoilaBrexit · 20/12/2018 08:16

The British guy in the Netherlands?

A nice case of cognitive dissonance where someone who benefits from many advantages of been in the EU (FOM, access to healthcare etc etc) is telling how awful it is that some EU citizens can have the same in return in the U.K.
It wouldn’t surprise me if he was also moaning that his future is at stake and he doesn’t know if he will be able to stay in the Netherlands and crap it is that the EU hasn’t made a clear decision to let any U.K. citizens stay inthe Eu with no change at all to their status....

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2018 08:18

lonely Leavers were claiming that the UK would get a good deal from the EU, because Merkel ... and German cars ...

but funnily enough, she doesn't run the EU
and neither she nor the other EU leaders would ever have agreed to redesign the EU to let the UK keep its benefits after leaving

(and the German car manufacturers have kept saying why protecting the EU SIngle Market is the priority for them, not the UK market)

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2018 08:22

Institute of Govt: Government should admit that the UK will not be ready for no deal

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/government-should-admit-uk-will-not-be-ready-no-deal

Of course, it has been clear for some time that the UK will not be ready for a no deal Brexit.
...
The head of HMRC told MPs that the date for installing the best customs system for a no deal exit was months ago.

And many of those in the private sector who would need to do much of the preparation for a no deal exit are still unsure of what they need to do.
Hence the warning from business lobby groups that “hundreds of thousands” of businesses won’t be ready.
^....
There are still many outstanding questions, including the UK’s new tariff regime
^
In the event of no deal, the EU has said UK exports will face EU tariffs as with any third country.UK exporters will also be required to go through full customs processes,^
which the Commission stresses member states need to be ready to manage.
^
But the UK Government has still not told businesses what tariffsthey will be have to pay on imports from the EU.^
^
The Government faces a big choice.

If they decide not to levy any tariffs on imports from the EU,
they will be required under WTO rules to do the same for all imports.
^
Conversely, if the UK applies the same tariffs on EU imports that they do for imports from countries with whom we have no special deals,
this will raise costs for businesses and consumers and cause problems for integrated supply chains.

There are still many outstanding questions, including the UK’s new tariff regime^
In the event of no deal, the EU has said UK exports will face EU tariffs as with any third country.

UK exporters will also be required to go through full customs processes
^ which the Commission stresses member states need to be ready to manage.

.....
It’s time for the Government to be honest about no deal.
^
Leaving the EU with no deal will cause^ disruption across large swathes of the UK’s economy.

Even with the best will in the world, it is impossible for the Government to solve all these issues on its own

–^ so if it wants to take the country over this cliff edge, it should be clear what will still be waiting at the bottom

Motheroffourdragons · 20/12/2018 08:25

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

FishesaPlenty · 20/12/2018 08:29

@BigChocFrenzy "Cabotage" by general international definition = "the right to operate sea, air, or other transport services within a particular territory"^

Yes, within a particular territory which means domestic services within a particular country. I actually quoted the EU directive which confirms that the EU take the same view, as do the UK Government and anyone in the haulage industry who was listening through their CPC tutorials. www.gov.uk/cabotage

You're confusing two separate but linked issues.

Every haulage operator needs an Operator's Licence. That entitles them to apply for an "EU Community Licence" which means they can carry out international haulage within the EU - this allows for collections and deliveries throughout the EEA as long as they're international journeys, i.e. collecting in one country and delivering in another . Separately it also gives them the right to temporarily carry out limited cabotage operations within a country.

In the event of a No Deal possession of a UK Operator's Licence would no longer carry the right to an EU Community Licence so the operators would have no right to carry out either international journeys or cabotage operations.

To continue to carry out international journeys UK hauliers would need to apply for an ECMT road haulage permit. There are a (very) limited number of these and the deadline for applying for them for the whole of next year is tomorrow. These permits allow international journeys but not domestic cabotage operations.

The EU have proposed to give UK operators (those without ECMT permits) the right to carry out deliveries from the UK to EU member states only for the 9 months after a no deal. They're not proposing to allow the operators any right to carry out any further international transport nor to carry out cabotage operations.

And as I think you hinted at earlier, the inability to reload back from the continent will inflate international haulage prices by at least 50% overnight.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/12/2018 08:31

mother The issue is that there is a culture of sexual harassment in Parliament, against ordinary staff there
and of insulting remarks by male MPs against women MPs, mostly by Tories to be fair

Corbyn shouldn't participate in this kind of hostile work environment
Labour claims to support feminism as a key principle, so the leader shouldn't be ill-disciplined so publicly

Swipe left for the next trending thread