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Brexit

Westminstenders: Dear Santa for Christmas I'd like...

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/12/2018 21:37

The ERG to be the grinch that stole the Tory Party Christmas who ultimately get what they deserve.

To remain in the EU

Donald Trump's impeachment

For politics to be boring again

A trex toy for my son

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Thread gallery
21
IsobelKarev · 13/12/2018 23:43

jedi, from my own little bubble (the only leavers I know are in agriculture) it isn't really skills that are needed. The work isn't especially skilled and requires little education. However, it is bloody hard work. Leavers' argument is that immigrants are prepared to accept lower and inconsistent wages (work is often seasonal) so effectively price them out of the work. Bosses argue they can't afford to pay more when competing with EU food imports. For the country as a whole it means food is cheap. Really cheap. We spend a tiny proportion of our incomes on food when compared to pretty much any previous generation. I think food being cheap is good. But my livelihood doesn't depend on it.

A similar argument can be made for most low skilled jobs currently filled by migrant workers.

nicoala1 · 13/12/2018 23:49

I am abroad, but was with cousins from Birmingham at an event today. They are grey in the face with Brexit. Never wanted it, don't like it, but their Dad, my uncle is an adamant Brexiteer.

Cue many shenanigans and arguments. He will not change his views at 88 years of age either. OK. He is entitled to his views but could not articulate them apart from a disgusting epithet about immigrants with darker skin.

Cousins reckon the whole world is laughing at the UK political system and its mayhem now. I did agree.

I have never seen so much incompetence from so few resulting in the potential detriment of so many apart from themselves and/or their party. Appalling stuff and embarrassing too. Democracy should be for the good of the country surely?

And yes, many are snorting at the shenanigans going on. It is totally laughable.

Our Parliament should be for the people. But maybe Democracy has now morphed into infighting, tit for tat, no explanations, no plans, no nothing...... for their OWN benefit. I am just totally amazed at the the childishness and incompetence of the mother of Parliaments now.

And there is no intelligent questioning opposition either, thanks to Momentum and Corbyn. It is like I want a vanilla cone, I want a chocolate cone. Nothing changes. Inertia ensues.

I have a bit of the rage now, but anyway.

I sincerely blame it all on the FPTP system. Who the heck would bother to engage if someone in an elf suit stood and would be elected anyway.

Sorry, got a bit carried away there!

Peregrina · 13/12/2018 23:50

I don't think care work should be classed as unskilled, or not if it is done well. The trouble is, it is undervalued and not done well too often.

IsobelKarev · 14/12/2018 00:25

I wasn't thinking if any specific industry when I said a broader argument could be made - I have no where near the experience required to judge other jobs as low skilled.

HesterThrale · 14/12/2018 00:38

Just watched QT for the first time in a year. Dimbleby’s last one. It was more tolerable than I expected. A modicum of manners and humour goes a long way in debate. Some very capable women on the panel... Angela Rayner saying that we should have had cross-party working from early on, but TM froze them out and then set her impossible red lines. I have a lot of time for Caroline Lucas, but I still worry that unless a PV had a decisive result (65/35?) we’d still be left with one side bitter and resentful. David Davis, in my opinion, came across as the weakest, saying that he thought a better deal could be got from the EU by pushing it to the wire of the last minute. But a whole country’s stability would be hanging on this brinksmanship. It’s too risky.
You’re right mother, parties and people are split. Nicky Morgan pointed out that we are so hopelessly divided that we’re not going to get consensus on this. And she told DD that we actually know from experts that we wouldn’t be ready for a no-deal, which he then disagreed with her on.
So where do we go if we can’t get consensus?

puttingthegenieback · 14/12/2018 04:34

Apologies if someone has already posted this link. Spot-on: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/13/dont-pity-theresa-may-immigration-mess

BroomstickOfLove · 14/12/2018 05:14

My high church Anglican church is by no means the Tory party at prayer, and was very much remain in tone. One of the members of the congregation is the person who organises most of the local Remain activism (and most of the progressive politics demos in general).

borntobequiet · 14/12/2018 05:40

I suspect that religion is less of a factor in whether people voted Leave or Remain than other things such as age and education. So a younger, better educated person of religion might be more likely to vote Remain than an older, less well educated person.
Belief is a strange thing and imo always involves a big component of cognitive dissonance. I for one could not believe in a merciful God because of the terrible things that happen to people in this world, but I know many who can reconcile this belief with reality. Some are intelligent and highly educated. Superstition (which is what religious practices really are) is actually a set of ingrained habits based on fear of what will happen if such practice is discontinued. Some personalities are more susceptible to this than others.
Religion is also othering, which is a very powerful reassurance if one is in a limited group who all believe. My Catholic upbringing makes me very suspicious of nice Catholics who believe that people like me, who reject Catholicism, really believe that I should burn in Hell for all Eternity because of my wilful presumption. How could anyone even entertain such a thought? But they do.

mathanxiety · 14/12/2018 05:56

maybe Democracy has now morphed into infighting, tit for tat, no explanations, no plans, no nothing

Agree.

mathanxiety · 14/12/2018 06:00

[Varadkar] said No to idea of bilateral deal between London & Dublin as way through impasse

DGR
Anyone translate that ? I can. Basically it's "we don't trust you feckers

Not just that, but also the UK cannot negotiate with any single member of the EU on any aspect of the WA. It's all 27 or nobody. Ambassadors can communicate either openly or discreetly behind the scenes, but separate negotiations cannot be undertaken either openly or behind the scenes. The process has to be transparent and it can only involve the appointed negotiator and negotiating body.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 06:13

This is an interesting observation
The analysis by religion is interesting. The Anglican Church is however a very broad church, with the very High elements like Theresa May, most definitely the Tory party at prayer. There are quite a number of low church parishes which won't be all that much different from non-conformist churches, so probably centre/liberal/moderately left, and then the evangelical/ fundamentalist wing. These tend to be very conservative in outlook and I would expect those being concerned about their African brothers and sisters to belong to this wing. I may be wrong - it's just observing the religious scene locally.

I don't know if any of you saw this from earlier this week:

Ryan Struyk @ ryanstruyk
This is a genius piece from @RonBrownstein. The Trump/GOP base isn't whites. It's white evangelicals.
amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/12/11/politics/the-foundation-of-trumps-coalition-is-cracking/index.html?__twitter_impression=true
The foundation of Trump's coalition is cracking

In the UK, the 2015 Ukip vote split at the 2017 GE - with Northern working class types turning back to Labour. If you look at history, the Chartist movement of the 1830s / 1840s isn't dissimilar

Chartism was a working-class movement for political reform in Britain that existed from 1838 to 1857. It took its name from the People's Charter of 1838 and was a national protest movement, with particular strongholds of support in Northern England, the East Midlands, the Staffordshire Potteries, the Black Country, and the South Wales Valleys. Support for the movement was at its highest in 1839, 1842, and 1848, when petitions signed by millions of working people were presented to the House of Commons.

The People's Charter called for six reforms to make the political system more democratic:

1. A vote for every man twenty-one years of age, of sound mind, and not undergoing punishment for a crime.

2. The secret ballot to protect the elector in the exercise of his vote.

3. No property qualification for Members of Parliament in order to allow the constituencies to return the man of their choice.

4. Payment of Members, enabling tradesmen, working men, or other persons of modest means to leave or interrupt their livelihood to attend to the interests of the nation.

5. Equal constituencies, securing the same amount of representation for the same number of electors, instead of allowing less populous constituencies to have as much or more weight than larger ones.

6. Annual Parliamentary elections, thus presenting the most effectual check to bribery and intimidation, since no purse could buy a constituency under a system of universal manhood suffrage in each twelve-month period.

Chartists saw themselves fighting against political corruption and for democracy in an industrial society, but attracted support beyond the radical political groups for economic reasons, such as opposing wage cuts and unemployment.

There are also strong traditions of religious non conformity in the same areas and the same population too.

I don't think the dynamics are hugely different tbh - either with the past or modern day US.

Westminstenders: Dear Santa for Christmas I'd like...
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RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 06:18

Dr Liam Fox MP @ liamfox
I welcome the approval of the EU-Japan economic partnership agreement yesterday, which could boost UK GDP by up to £3bn in the long run. Japan is a vocal defender of free trade and this agreement will form the basis of our new, stronger trading relationship as we leave the EU.

But we could just have this FTA Liam...

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RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 06:22

James Patrick @j_amesp
The Austrian chancellor sums up Brexiters nicely, saying there’s not a lot Europe can do help Britain out because they “do not argue in a way that is really rational.”

This is a huge problem.

It doesn't matter what their argument is, if it's not rational no one else is going to buy into it.

That hasn't changed.

No Brexiteer has managed it. Davis and Raab continue to abjectly fail at it.

If its a belief rather than an argument (which it is) then it is never going to convince heathens.

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BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 06:31

The UK all along has wanted secret negotiations, to keep both public and MPs in the dark,
because the British system only works when the plebs don't realise what their betters are up to.

The UK has all along wanted to deal with countries separately, so that Ireland in particular could be isolated from the rest of the EU and bullied into submission.

So the 2 tactics the govt & Brexit leaders depended on were scuppered from the start

They were also handicapped by the ignorance of the Brexiters in particular about how weak our negotiting position is,
because they are totally ignorant of how any highly developed country actually works and what it depends on:

international trade, all the non-EU trade deals we lose, other essential treaties like flights, essential agencies like EURATOM, medicines, certification of all goods & services, the right to actually certify and have this recognised internationally ...

So they expected a special British cake to be baked, but instead were offered the standard menu of options

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2018 06:38

Theresa May humiliated in Brussels as EU leaders reject her Brexit demands

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/100560/theresa-may-humiliated-brussels-eu-leaders-reject-her

A draft proposal which would have provided "political and legal assurances" that the backstop would not be indefinite was scrapped

Meanwhile, a separate pledge that the backstop "does not represent a desirable outcome! for the EU was also ditched.

European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker said: "Our UK friends need to say what they want, instead of asking us to say what we want. So we would like within a few weeks our UK friends to set out their expectations for us because this debate is sometimes nebulous and imprecise and I would like clarifications."

And in comments which will infuriate Tory Brexiteers who wanted Mrs May to wring fresh concessions out of the EU, he added: "We don’t want the UK to think there can be any form of renegotiation, that is crystal clear.We can add clarifications but no real changes.

"There will be no legally binding obligations imposed on the withdrawal treaty."

The EU response means Mrs May will return from Brussels empty-handed, despite telling her MPs that she would get "legal assurances" to satisfy their concerns on the backstop.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 06:40

Reminder of some Brexiter delusions - which explain why we're in this mess:

There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.
David Davis (10 October 2016)

The day after we vote to leave we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.
Michael Gove (9 April 2016)

There will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.
Boris Johnson (26 June 2016)

Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards in any negotiation.
John Redwood (17 July 2016)

The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.
Liam Fox (20 July 2017)

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 06:43

Peter Foster @ pmdfoster
So @theresa_may got a an absolute kicking tonight.

She made her pitch to the the EU leaders and they basically said no.

Compare and contrast. Ugly. #Brexit

Westminstenders: Dear Santa for Christmas I'd like...
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BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 06:51

It's unlikely - unless she is as delusional as any Ultra - that May ever imagined the EU would make major concessions that they haven't agreed in the last 2 years.

Probably she is just running down time until Parliament closes down for its Christmas break on 20 December,
It won't reconvene until 7 January 2019.

EU public opinion and national parliaments wouldn't allow further concessions, e.g.

https://www.breakingthenews.net/bundestag-against-brexit-deal-renegotiation/news/details/46070494
German lawmakers voted on Thursday in favor of a motion which voices the country's opposition to the renegotiation of the Brexit agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union.

"It would be an illusion to hope that a rejection of the deal could lead to renegotiations,"
the motion backed by the Bundestag states.

Earlier in the week, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, as well as French and Austrian officials insisted it will not be possible to renegotiate the Brexit agreement and make more concessions to the United Kingdom.

< for those who persist in thinking she's retired, Merkel remains Chancellor for quite some time, probably until the 2021 elections >

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker also stated

"there is no room" for renegotiation but added the EU is willing to provide Britain with "further clarifications" regarding the Irish backstop provision if necessary

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 06:54

Looks like further attempts at renegotiation are likely to make the WA worse
because the EU has run out of patience with this sorry shower of Brexit fantasists

(I still suspect May knows better, because she made some very knowledgeable statements before the ref.
Maybe she had a software update since then ? )

Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 07:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 07:27

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Brexit: EU says no to May on renegotiating deal - it’s like Salzburg all over again, except there’s much less time left

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-46560807?__twitter_impression=true
Brexit: EU says no to May on renegotiating deal

That's the BBC and Telegraph describing it as Salzburg 2

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bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 07:28

I agree @Mrsr8 , she's running down the clock.
Would you rather take the footbridge to the other side of the motorway on a dark wet night with darker clothes and heavy traffic. Or would you rather chance it by crossing on foot.
I know Leavers find analogies triggering but, hey, we all have to make compromises.Grin
I'm a Remain supporter who will take the footbridge.
Don't ask why the hell we are crossing the fecking motorway. Our car has broken down.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 07:31

Simon Nixon @ simon_nixon
Extraordinary. Theresa May is not being humiliated by the EU, she is humiliating Britain by turning up to international summits at a moment of crisis proposing half-baked solutions that she’s cant even explain herself.

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RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 07:35

George Trefgarne @georgetrefgarne
1. Ironically, it is quite clear that the Remainers keeping Theresa May in office are creating the bizarre outcome of making No Deal more likely

2. The spin that a) the backstop is somehow acceptable b) just needs tweaking is totally nuts. It won’t pass Parliament, either the meaningful vote or the accompanying legislation

3. So the label of ‘wrecker’ has, incredibly, shifted from Jacob & co to all those people clapping embarrasungly on telly as Sir Graham Brady read out the result.

4. Everything changes so fast. Not long now.

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2018 08:19

James Crisp
@JamesCrisp6
Understand that , under questioning from EU 27 leaders, one of Theresa May's responses was "Brexit means Brexit."

Jeez.