Leave voters? What's your alternative plan for the country if TM's Withdrawal Agreement doesn't get through?

[bellinisurge]

A small majority of people who voted in the referendum voted Leave. I presume they still want to Leave. How do we do that if the Withdrawal Agreement fails and Parliament has voted through an amendment which allows it to stop No Deal.
Talk me through it ...

Is this a Hard Brexit?

No standardisation of consumer goods & services regulations, so lots of paperwork to export to EU; manufacturers who want to export to EU having eventually to pay attention to both UK standards & separate EU standards in their manuf. process

EU has same import tariffs for UK as EU applies to other 3rd countries (required under WTO rules)

Subject to & recourse to the WTO arbitration scheme (the one that is expected to grind to a halt soon due to American policy)

Subject to the WTO schedule of quotas (that all other members vote on what Uk gets)

UK has to apply same tariff regime to all imported goods no matter where they come from in the world

End of Just-in-Time manufacturing

EU skilled migrants replaced by migrants from r-world.

No role, certainly no influential role, in many EU projects, such as Gallileo

Part of the problem is that nobody voted for a soft Brexit or a hard Brexit or any specific kind of Brexit because nobody was asked what sort of Brexit they wanted. So we have all kinds of assumptions about “what the people wanted” but actually we don’t know. Some leave voters wanted a super soft Brexit and are happy with Mays deal, some wanted No Deal at any cost (even where there cost could be peoples lives), some are in the middle.

What did you imagine a hard Brexit would entail, Weetabix?

A compatriot is a fellow citizen.

These people with gallows and Priti Patel suggesting starving the Irish they are on YOUR side. By voting leave you offer them succour and comfort.

They are also my compatriots I suppose as a British citizen, but I reject their views and their ideals. I won't vote with them and I won't offer them any support. I will fight them and vote against them.

I would be deeply, deeply uncomfortable if I was lending the any support tacit or otherwise.

Weetabix

What is on offer now looks nothing like what I voted for

Do you think that what you voted for was attainable? Is it possible, perhaps, that what you voted for has not been achieved because that was absolutely impossiblem, whoever was on the negotiating team and whatever their agenda was?

So rather than it being been the aim all along, perhaps the failure to negotiate a deal exactly as you want it to be represents the fact that what you voted for - what you were unscrupulously promised - was utterly undeliverable by anyone (hence the fact that all those who promised it have quit)?

Because you agreed to vote in a ref so you agreed to the terms. You cant still fight to remain. You need to get on the right side. You agreed to the terms of the vote

I didn't see the Ts&CS that said that. I can continue to fight to remain all I like. To silence opposing voices isn't very democratic.

Because you agreed to vote in a ref so you agreed to the terms.

I voted in a referendum that i thought had been conducted in a legal manner - and in which i hoped some of those campaigning had some facts to support their most eye-catching and persuasive assertions.

Facts that have come to light since about dodgy funding, and totally made-up promises, mean that of course I didn't vote in the referendum I thought I was voting in - and the question is whether everyone would vote the same way had they known these facts at the time.

Wich is why, as i see it, a second referendum on the actual deal in front of us is a fair way forward, because it is about something concrete - a choice between known, flawed membership of the EU, or known, flawed deal, or known, flawed exit without a deal. My only fear is that because 'No Deal' is the least clear of the 3, people will vote for it because it might, just might, turn out to be all rosy and lovely.....

What I wanted was to leave Europe.

It isn't my responsibility to figure out how that happens. We were all given a vote. If we can't survive without key workers from the EU then why not? What makes us so attractive to them? If Europe is so great why don't they stay there? What do we offer them that they can't get at home?

The referendum was explicitly only advisory - NOT statutory.

Indeed, in the run up to the EU Referendum the SNP tried to out forward an amendment to make it statutory (in the way that the result of the Indyref was legally binding) and that it should include provision for each of the constituent nations of the UK should agree to any constitutional change, but was told that it wasn't necessary because it was "only advisory"

These people with gallows and Priti Patel suggesting starving the Irish they are on YOUR side.
Yeah, nice try. I voted, in one election, in the same way as they did. One election on a yes or no question.

Doesn't mean I am politically allied to them or in agreement with anything else that they stand for.

I wouldn't be so quick to ally yourself politically with some of the people on the remain side either if I were you.

It isn't my responsibility to figure out how that happens.

Well, no, but you are in part responsible for the situation we are in, having voted for something without knowing what the consequences of that vote were.

If we can't survive without key workers from the EU then why not?

Your follow up question makes it clear that you are thinking of this the wrong way round,. It is not that they come here because 'we are so attractive'. We NEED them to come here because our own citizens don't find these jobs attractive enough, or we don't train / retain enough of our own citizens to take them.

"Doesn't mean I am politically allied to them or in agreement with anything else that they stand for."
But you are. You got into bed with them.

What I wanted was to leave Europe.

You voted for this. A deal has been negotiated that allows this, and appears to be the best deal available.

Whats your issue? That although you aeren't bothered about 'how leaving Europe is done', you have decided that you don't like this particular version of how it is done????

So rather than it being been the aim all along, perhaps the failure to negotiate a deal exactly as you want it to be represents the fact that what you voted for - what you were unscrupulously promised - was utterly undeliverable by anyone (hence the fact that all those who promised it have quit)?

Well we can't really know that can we because the people trying to negotiate are doing it from a position of not believing in what they are negotiating for. They don't want to succeed so they are making sure that it fails.

Doesn't mean I am politically allied to them or in agreement with anything else that they stand for.

And yet those people who are hell bent on Brexit at any cost (which as I said before, includes peoples lives) are using your vote in that way.

They don't want to succeed so they are making sure that it fails.

So Boris Johnson didn't want it to succeed? Nor did Raab?

Are you sure?

Well we can't really know that can we because the people trying to negotiate are doing it from a position of not believing in what they are negotiating for. They don't want to succeed so they are making sure that it fails.

Who do you mean? All three Brexit secretaries have been Leave voters...?

(Because Boris Johnson didn't walk away because he 'could have negotiated a wonderful deal but chose not to'. He walked away because it became clear to him that he culdn't negotiate the deal he had promised, and wanted to be able to escape from this to snipe from the sidelines rather than taking responsibility.)

People who wanted Brexit were given the opportunity to negotiate and they walked away.

It's a theme. Brexit supporters flouncing off, resigning and blaming others.

It's never their fault, they didn't vote for this, they wanted something else, this Pandora's box of racism and hate isn't their fault.

You voted for this mess.

Whats your issue?

I don't really have an issue other than the so called deal stands a very real chance of not being accepted by parliament and I don't like the backstop hanging over us, basically still tying us to Europe.

I keep asking, and no one is answering, why weren't provisions made in the event of us leaving when we joined?

Why is this having to be negotiated now? Are there not rules governing what happens when a country decides to leave?

Johnson, Davis and Raab are all ardent Brexit supporters...they were the ones doing the negotiation. So I don't understand your point about them not being committed to leaving........ Unless you are saying they aren't Brexit supporters and they have frustrated the process deliberately.

All three Brexit secretaries have been Leave voters...?
Yes, in a government of remainers. I doubt they are giving free reign to negotiate in any way that they see fit?

They were...A50 sets it out. It is just very few people want that now they realise what that entails.

I don’t know why they weren’t, Weetabix. I wasn’t even born when we joined. The fact that we didn’t doesn’t help us figure out what to do now. I suspect that even if we had, the way the world has changed since 1973 could possibly have made those provisions unworkable. The Good Friday Agreement for example only came into effect in 1998.

We used to rule the world, almost literally. We no longer do. We are a much smaller player on the world stage than we used to be.

Unescorted

I am saying that they were doing it within the confines of a largely remain cabinet. Who knows what parameters they were given to negotiate within or what vetoes they faced?