Leave voters? What's your alternative plan for the country if TM's Withdrawal Agreement doesn't get through?

[bellinisurge]

A small majority of people who voted in the referendum voted Leave. I presume they still want to Leave. How do we do that if the Withdrawal Agreement fails and Parliament has voted through an amendment which allows it to stop No Deal.
Talk me through it ...

Okay Jam, I’ll ask again - as you believe there to be a solution, what do you believe that solution is?

You've said drop the backstop @blackcurrantjam . If you knew anything about anything you would realise this is not a comment worthy of respect.

I've given an example. Why dont you come up with something instead of carping and being rude.

@blackcurrantjam
I agree, it can get a bit disparaging on here. In defence of some of the posters, having to shine a light through the foggy wish lists and dreamy promises otherwise known as Leave plans, gets both tiring and repetitive, causing a lack of patience at times.

Bellini you rather prove my point there lolol

'If you knew anything...'

Here's my solution, @blackcurrantjam . Which I have said several times on MN - border in the sea. Make N Ireland a free trade zone. Say that to your pals in the ERG and they go purple.

MissMalice

I disagree that staying as we were was better than leaving. Many people didn't like the direction that the EU was heading. It was seemingly intent on taking more and more power away from individual states, developing a European Army and, in my view, intent on pushing for a United States of Europe. Many of us didn't want to just go along with that.

As for David Cameron - yes he has the responsibility. People were calking for a referendum. He didn't have to agree to it if he knew that there was no way to leave the EU that didn't spell disaster. He should have mounted a decent campaign to inform the electorate, fully, about the facts rather than trying to score points with silly tit for tat arguments that achieved nothing.

Even after the referendum they coukd have held off triggering article 50 until a plan was in place.

The Tories have presided over this debacle and can't try and off load the responsibility now.

*@blackcurrantjam *
Jason118 why on earth shouldn't they? So their citizens can have access to our market, security, education, and so on.
But it's not worth compromising for them to get these things. Our market is shrinking, the rest of the EU has excellent universities, we're not that special. What do you mean by 'and so on'?

Why should I come up with a solution when I don’t want us to leave? I don’t believe there is a solution. We cannot simultaneously have a border and not have a border. EU rules and GFA are mutually exclusive.

I don’t understand your solution - you say both sides should compromise - okay - but how? On what? What does a workable compromise look like?

You cant do that. You are annexing NI from the UK. You change the relationship- trading - between UK and NI. We are one country.

And so they have the backstop.

Because you agreed to vote in a ref so you agreed to the terms. You cant still fight to remain. You need to get on the right side. You agreed to the terms of the vote.

I'll never stop fighting to remain. Democracy sure as hell isn't telling people what they can and can't believe in.

Jason I disagree it's not worth it.

And so on.. environmental, fishing.. . Some things we just dont agree on so ivory trading, African policy etc but the things we do agree on, particularly trading - we can collaborate

That is absolutely not how democracy works, thankfully.

@blackcurrantjam , I'm not fighting to Remain. I'm asking leave voters for their ideas if the don't like TM Withdrawal Agreement and, apart from No Deal nonsense, I'm not hearing anything.
If NI was truly part of the UK why does it have different laws on fundamental issues like abortion and equal marriage?

*@Weetabixandshreddies *
It was seemingly intent on taking more and more power away from individual states, developing a European Army and, in my view, intent on pushing for a United States of Europe. Many of us didn't want to just go along with that.
So why not make sure that within the EU these things would never happen, rather than throwing all of the toys out of the pram? 'I think they might plan a EU army (a bit like NATO, only closer to home). I know we can say no, but they might make me, so let's run away, quick and trash the economy at the same time'
Utter madness.

MissMalice

Really, how can you expect posters on here to develop policies for this?

It's enormous.

Our government and the EU have teams of experts in economics, policy, law, immigration at their disposal and they can't work it out so how do you expect us to?

I am not an expert in European law. I have no idea what is and isn't allowed.

I know that I don't want to be a part of a federal Europe. I was asked to vote and I voted. I mandated my government, with all of it's resources, to figure this out.

*@blackcurrantjam *
Jason I disagree it's not worth it.
Your showing your lack of understanding on how negotiations work. Whether you thinks it's worth it or not is irrelevant. For a compromise in any deal, you both have to think it's worth it. Pretty basic stuff.

Weetabix - as I said, I have little positive to say about David Cameron. However, we live in a democratic country, people wanted a voice on staying in the EU or not, he gave people that voice. The responsibility of leaving remains in the hands of those who told the public that leaving was a positive choice. It was not DCs job to come up with that plan. It was the responsibility of those who wanted it and told the public it was possible.

How is leaving better than remaining? Overall, what are the specific benefits? I have been asking this for 2.5 years and nobody has been able to say. Even leave campaigners now admit that we will be worse off - potentially for 50 years.

That's a shame Jason, now you are being condescending.

Disengaging.

Our government and the EU have teams of experts in economics, policy, law, immigration at their disposal and they can't work it out so how do you expect us to?

I don’t! I honestly believe remaining is the best option - remaining and addressing the issues of immigration, sovereignty etc using the tools already available to us.

I asked the question because posters were hinting there is a solution and I’m not arrogant enough to think that just because I believe there isn’t one or because I don’t want one that there isn’t one.

Your point is exactly my point - people who are experts can’t fix this. It’s no use people saying “there must be a solution”. That doesn’t magic one up. If there isn’t a solution we need to re-evaluate what on earth we are doing, not just trot out “well we voted for it so we have to leave regardless”. That’s a dangerous position to take.

still waiting on your solution, blackcurrantjam...

@Weetabixandshreddies, @blackcurrantjam

Six pages into this discussion and lots of re-hashing of old arguments. None of your comments address the question asked by the OP.

The title of the thread is 'What's your alternative plan for the country if TM's Withdrawal Agreement doesn't get through?'

On 29th March the UK leaves the EU. Leave voters insist that this is what they voted for and that it must happen to satisfy 'the will of the people' so when the UK leaves -

• Where are we going; what is the future relationship with the EU and the rest of the world going to be?
• How will we get there?
• How long will it take and what will it cost and who is paying?
• Who will benefit - all of us or just a select few?
• What checks are in place to ensure that we're going the right way, and who is in control of these checks?
• What happens if it becomes clear that we're not going to get there?

@blackcurrantjam Dont need the backstop because all the grown ups want a deal. On both sides. You tell me why we need it?

As i understand it, NI has to be a CU of some sort with the EU to avoid a border ?
atm that CU would be a whole UK one but that stops us having an independent trade policy, English Unionists don't want NI to be separated from the rest of the UK.... and Scotland doesn't want NI to have a competitive advantage over them and risks Scotland asking for another indie vote, which SNP might well win!

So, why can't the problem be resolved by the UK dropping its red line and agreeing to be in the CU for all of the UK ?

Its clear that compromise has to happen and Brexitiers will have to accept this or have no brexit/risk a return to the armed struggle.

No border and no CU cannot work, the UK will have different standards and different FTA's ie safety std's, food, manufactured goods, perhaps even medicines could all be different to Euro ones, so no side will want their SM's compromised.