Leave voters? What's your alternative plan for the country if TM's Withdrawal Agreement doesn't get through?

[bellinisurge]

A small majority of people who voted in the referendum voted Leave. I presume they still want to Leave. How do we do that if the Withdrawal Agreement fails and Parliament has voted through an amendment which allows it to stop No Deal.
Talk me through it ...

Cameron wasn't bribing the electorate

And of course he was bribing the electorate. He knew that the campaign for a referendum was growing and he hoped that by promising one people would vote conservative rather that another coalition. I'm sure he thought that the vote would be to remain though so that gamble didn't pay off but it was clearly designed to encourage voters to vote conservative.

One of the last 'statements' on the expensive leaflet posted to the whole of the UK by the conservatives was that the UK was best as part of Europe.
Why didn't leavers follow that advice?

Most elections are re-run every 5 years. Once we leave, that’s it, we can’t get back the deal we currently have.

Would I, as a remainer, be campaigning for another referendum if remain won? No. The consequences of remaining are not catastrophic in the way the results of no deal are. Would I expect Leave to continue campaigning for another shot - yes, and Nigel Farage said himself if the result was with 2 percentage points he would too.

Democracy is not about vote once and then that’s it. Yes I would be happy to re-run a referendum at various points in the future if the public wanted to do that. And I would expect greater scrutiny on lies, on spending etc. Alan Sugar made a fantastic point about the way businesses are scrutinised over the claims they put out to the public - why aren’t politicians held to the same level of scrutiny.

MissMalice

So when was the referendum held on whether to join the EU or not?

Even if you count the vote to join the common market, that was in the 70s so 40ish years ago.

Seems fair that we can have another one in about 40 years then?

We've clearly not had a vote every 5 years on whether to stay in the EU or not so that issue hasn't been treated like a general election. Why should it start now because your side lost?

One of the last 'statements' on the expensive leaflet posted to the whole of the UK by the conservatives was that the UK was best as part of Europe.

And that expensive leaflet contained just a pile of waffle, as, to be fair, did the campaign on both sides.

I certainly saw very little facts or proper information given by anyone. It was very much left to the electorate to form their own views whilst the politicians were busy infighting and point scoring.

This is the result.

Bellini you just want to stay. That's the point of your question.
Let's forget the result of the referendum and stay. Let's ask for change and we can all be friends. We were never friends and we had no real influence.
You need to stop thinking that we can do a u turn and stay in the EU.

So you believe then weetabix that the referendum was not won based on facts and realities? Doesn’t that seem dangerous to you? That we could be doing irreversible damage to our country?

Weetabixandshreddies as a representative democracy we vote for individuals not parties. You may think you vote for a party but you don't.

So when an MP crosses the floor they may change party but the individual you voted for remains the same. We don't vote for a PM, we vote for individual MPs. The MP is the leader of the party with the majority so members of the Conservative party may well be electing the person who becomes PM.

When a government is formed it is formed by the individual MPs grouping together. So coalition governments are formed by the individual MPs voting to support the government.

Basically, you don't vote for a government you vote for one individual MP. Lots of people don't understand this but it is how our system works.

Voting for a 'deal' or a piece of legislation is different. Legislation or agreements can be agreed in principal and once the details ironed out voted on again - this is common practice.

A second referendum or parliament voting to negate Brexit is entirely constitutional and legal.

FACTS: I remember many in the 2016 campaign

Who supported each side, and why they said they felt that way
The details of Norway & Switzerland trade rels with EU
The details of concurrent UK rel with EU
The concessions Cameron got from EU (which I thought were pretty good, actually)
A lot of people resented immigrants
A lot of people resented shared sovereignty, ECJ, ECHR
Most young people valued FOM & saw themselves as EU citizens
Fishing people wanted to leave EU, blamed EU for their woes
The details of UK rebate, net payments to EU
Many people stated loudly they didn't know how to make this decision, they didn't have enough information to do so

Some people gave specific reasons for their vote. Some of those we don't hear so much of lately but they would crop up again: "to give the establishment a kicking" is still out there.

@BlueJag . You are quite wrong. I voted to Remain. I'm doing no lobbying for another vote. I continue to question people who voted Leave.
I absolutely want to avoid the catastrophe of No Deal. Anything else is a bonus in my view. At the moment, the only Leave in town is TM's deal. I would take this over No Deal.
I'm a prepper. I'm as ready as I can be for No Deal. But I don't want it.
I started this thread to see what Leavers were thinking about other Leave options. No Deal is unthinkable, or should be.

We should not have a Remainer trying to negotiate us leaving.

David Davis was no Remainer. The fact that he was a lazy arse who didn't bother to do any preparation might account for why Leavers haven't begun to tell us what they want.

Leasdom, Gove and Johnson weren't Remainers. Gove's leadership bid didn't get very far, Johnson refused to stand and Leasdom opened her big mouth to make some unpleasant and uncalled for remarks about Theresa May being childless, and I would suspect that caused the men in suits to come for her.

Bellini how I am wrong? I get you want to stay at all cost. That's not an option.
We are playing chicken and the EU it's much better at it than us.
WTO isn't a disaster but isn't ideal either.
The problem that we all have is that we were asked a question and the were not prepared for a leave vote.
We the British public were asked a massive life changing question. The government didn't think or prepare for the result. That's madness to me.
I voted to leave but what I didn't know was that we were completely unprepared.
I just can't believe how much this has divided the country and how little trust we have of a good outcome.

Moussemoose

Yes thanks, for the patronising reply.

I understand all of that.

I also understand that when I vote for, say a Labour MP, that they are in all likelihood going to follow the party whip so I have a reasonably good view of what they will vote for and against.

I can read party manifestos and so I know, roughly, what each party will hope to achieve if elected.

Yes I will vote for an individual MP and what I think of that person as a constituency MP but I am also voting with one eye on the party that I want to win.

If my MP crosses the floor, he will be voting in a way that no longer represents my views, albeit on an individual basis he is still the person that I voted for he will no longer be voting in line with my principles if he is with an opposing party.

And still no one answers my question - when did we vote to join the EU?

Just to illustrate ignorance (in the true sense of the word) from Weetabix

Even if you count the vote to join the common market, that was in the 70s so 40ish years ago.

There was no vote to join the Common Market in the 70s

The UK had already joined the Common Market

There was, however, a vote in 1975 about whether we wanted to stay in the Common Market. To which the answer - at c67%, was a definitive Yes (Although there were those within the EEC who were disappointed that it wasn't more than 70%, as they thought that meant that there would be too much continued resistance and they were right )

WTO isn't a disaster
How do you know this?

I voted to leave but what I didn’t know was that we were completely unprepared
You voted for something not knowing whether it was safe to vote for that option or not?! Why?!

@BlueJag - I think you are mixing me up with someone else. My view didn't prevail in the Referendum. I don't want No Deal because it would be a national catastrophe. I'm ready if we do go No Deal because I am a prepper. I will accept TM Withdrawal Agreement over no deal. I have said this countless times. Are you even bothering to read it?

Bellini clearly we don't understand each other. I'm replying to you and you don't understand what I'm saying.
That's Brexit negotiations...

There was, however, a vote in 1975 about whether we wanted to stay in the Common Market.
And that was what I was referring to, in response to a post suggesting that of course we should have a 2nd referendum because we get a vote every 5 years on our government.

My point being, that the last vote concerning belonging to a union within Europe was over 40 years ago, and it wasn't even the European Union as we see it now, it was the Common Market.

So we've never voted to join the European Union until now, when we have said that no, we don't want to belong. That should be it.

Miss Malice how was the British public to know that the government hadn't prepared for an out vote.
That information wasn't available at the time of the vote.

@BlueJag - you said " I get you want to stay at all cost. ". This is wrong for all the reasons I said this is wrong. You not getting that reflects poorly in your ability to understand.

Miss Malice how was the British public to know that the government hadn't prepared for an out vote.

Exactly. Which just goes to show what a shower the Tory party are a)to give a referendum and then b)to trigger article 50 when they were completely unprepared and with no plan in place.

And why did TM stand for PM knowing that she didn't agree with what she was going to have to do?

of course we should have a 2nd referendum because we get a vote every 5 years on our government.
That wasn’t what I said at all.

My point was that democracy is about consistently having a say. If there was a strong enough appetite for Leave before now, a referendum would have happened. It’s taken 40 years to get to a point where there was enough of an appetite for a referendum, a Leave vote has won by a very small margin and proof of overspending and questions over dodgy data practices.

Democracy is not “this is what we voted for now deal with it”.

If there is a strong desire to stay in the EU now we know more, we should have the choice to stay. If there’s a strong desire to return to the EU in however many years when leaving has gone horribly wrong, we should be able to vote to rejoin. That’s my opinion, you’re welcome to disagree.

how was the British public to know that the government hadn't prepared for an out vote.

That’s a joke question, right?
Did you see, from any Leave campaigner, a full and detailed plan?
Did you just assume someone, somewhere had one?
More fool you.

The lack of detailed leave plan was part of why I voted to remain.

I think we need someone to define 'disaster'.

She can go back to the EU and say withdrawal agreement will get thru if we forget the backstop. Then we negotiate a deal before dec 2020. Done.