Leave voters? What's your alternative plan for the country if TM's Withdrawal Agreement doesn't get through?

[bellinisurge]

A small majority of people who voted in the referendum voted Leave. I presume they still want to Leave. How do we do that if the Withdrawal Agreement fails and Parliament has voted through an amendment which allows it to stop No Deal.
Talk me through it ...

You seem to be blaming any problems on the EU's attitude, rather than accepting that it's our specific demands for our future relationship with the EU which are causing the problems

^this a million times over

The problem is the UK.

Leave voters are not going anywhere. They're not suddenly going to disappear. Views are entrenched and even more so now.

This idea that leave voters can be "forgiven for...". Forgiven? There you have it. This attitude is why I'm on the leave side now. I support them.

I want the UK to leave the EU. I dusbr before but the more I read here, it's the more indignant I become. That's coming from someone born outside the UK and who sincerely thought at the start that the UK should remain.

Very nice @Weightsandmeasures . Meanwhile, what is your alternative plan as requested in the op?

The problem is the EU and those who wish to deny democracy. The EU has taken control of more and more national powers without ever asking the people of Europe.

The EU has taken control of more and more national powers without ever asking the people of Europe.

Which ones?

No deal. WTO rules. Yes I understand the risks. I'm actually amused as to why my strength of feeling has done a 360 degree turn. I can only put it down to the attitude of Remainers and the behaviour of the EU.

I can't bear it! The affront to democracy has gotten right up my nose.

The comment ' forgiven' was in the context of a poster acknowledging that we are in a complete mess and saying that it was not the fault of anyone who voted for Brexit.

I was agreeing! In 2016 perhaps a Leave vote could be justified.

But in 2018 when we all agree it is a complete mess it surely becomes much harder to justify a Leave stance. How can anyone continue to support something they acknowledge is a mess?

The problem is the EU and those who wish to deny democracy. The EU has taken control of more and more national powers without ever asking the people of Europe

More lies!

Who exactly is the EU?

Oh, it’s the collective representatives of each member state.

Not some sort of mythical scary Demi-god as some make out.

Do you really understand the risks @Weightsandmeasures .
Explain the risk to food supply, for example, and the steps you have taken to mitigate against that.

The EU has taken control of more and more national powers without ever asking the people of Europe

The idea that there’s anything happening democratically is laughable. Government has been found in contempt of parliament for the first time ever. The same government that tried to refuse parliament a meaningful vote, oh and then have deferred said vote until who knows when.

The EU have only really said 2 things, politely and repeatedly because the UK are a bunch of weasels.
1: Whatever you do don't try and f$ck up the EU.
2: There must be no UK border in NI.

So, You have a bunch of whingers creating the Chequers document of which 10 of the 12 'demands' contradicting item 1.
And you have the ERG bunch and some others trying to put a border in NI.
And somehow the EU are the 'bad guys'.

MissMalice, the EU has taken none. There!

I travel to Brussels every month. I am involved in ensuring harmonisation of our laws with EU laws. The rules on State Aid is an area I'm intimately involved in.

So no, no rules at all. The EU member states are all in total control of their laws. They can do whatever the please and leave the club whenever they want. It's all just a tea party. Silly everyone who thinks that member States aren't rule takers.

The UK may have been able to influence the laws being made. That's very true. In my sector, we drove much of the laws. What we did on the UK was very much at the forefront of crafting new requirements. Nevertheless, on very important matters, it's like herding cats and the final decisions do not ever represent the interest of any one member.

Like I said, I was and probably still am pro-EU but the behaviour of Remainers and the EU, and the starting position of disrespect shown to those who voted to leave has turn me against them. I'm sure I'm not alone. Democracy should be respected.

If people were arguing for a referendum on the nature of the deal, I'd be more than fine with that. This business of reversing the result of two years ago is disgraceful. The arrogance and self-appointed status of "we know better" are never going to win Leavers over and will turn Remainers off.

Remember one thing, Leavers are silent. They are there and they will not go away and neither will their views evaporate overnight. They are likely to get stronger as betrayal and lack of democracy are added to their list of grievances.

The EU has taken control of more and more national powers without ever asking the people of Europe.

You picked me up on words I used and you are saying ' taken'. The very very limited subject areas the EU has power over we're not ' taken' they were ' given' or delegated.

I get sick of repeating this on here.The EU Treaties by consent give limited delegates powers in a limited range of areas (consumer protection, workers' rights environmental issues).

We retained 99.3% of spending power and didn't share most subject areas of legislation . So fiscal policy, pensions, health, social care, education, policing, punishment, crime, income tax, housing, highways, planning , inheritance, wills, military spending, succession of estates, family law, most company law, property rights, elderly social care etc etc are all down to individual member states.

You don't hear anyone in say Portugal complaining about the U.K. or France imposing rules on German healthcare or education - because we don't.

@Weightsandmeasures , I too deal almost daily with EU law with regular liaison with Brussels.
If you've changed your mind, you've changed your mind. However, threatening a groundswell of festering Leavers sounds like wishing to incite public disorder. Assume that is just a childish rhetorical flourish.

The arrogance and self-appointed status of "we know better" are never going to win Leavers over and will turn Remainers off.

But it's been perfectly acceptable for two years for Leavers to say they knew better.

It all seems to come down to "feelings" which is no real basis for a major economic national decision. It might be in there but it's not the basis for it.
I don't feel especially European. I don't feel especially Irish (despite being entitled to a passport). In fact I'm sure actual Irish people will have a name for paper Irish people like me. But I couldn't vote Leave because I know that decisions based on feelings are poor decisions.

I never really comment on these threads because all points of view are generally represented and people are so entrenched in their views that they automatically gainsay the opposing view. However can I just make a couple of points regarding Bella's views on technological systems concerning the Irish border. In my experience complex subjects can not be reduced to headlines and newspaper articles reflecting writers bias. I am no expert on customs procedures and neither are the vast majority of contributors on these threads. To understand these issues better I suggest you watch the evidence on Parliament TV to the NI select committee on 13/14 November by Hans Maessen and Lars Karlsson in which they state their credentials and give their opinion on how the border might work in a no deal scenario, and then make your own mind up.

Not sure you answered my question at all there, Weights, though @lonelyplanetmum appears to have done so.

As for leavers not being listened to - huh? A deal has been negotiated to leave. No deal is still the default outcome. How are they “not being listened to”?
Remain account for 48% of the population - that’s still a huge number. Where are they being listened to?

Remain account for 48% of the population - that’s still a huge number. Where are they being listened to?

Ah well, you see, that's different - Remainers are not The People. In fact, if Remainers open their mouths at all to "vocalise" any disagreement with The People, they're smug/arrogant/superior etc.

At the same time Remainers do get acknowledged as existing because clearly it would be unrealistic to say that the UK's view on Brexit is unanimous... also, Remainers have to be acknowledged to exist because literally everything that has gone wrong with the delivery of the otherwise inevitable Sunlit Uplands is their fault.

Leavers are “not being listened to”?

Because they still want all benefits of being in the EU without being in it. Despite having two options an agreement to leave and even better a crash out and they're still not happy.

It might as well be some other third country say Nigeria coming along and saying... we want unrestricted access to EU trade and markets. We don't want high tariffs or customs controls.We don't want to pay anything. We want free access to live and work in the EU (but no one can come to Nigeria) and we don't want any ECJ jurisdiction to be involved if anything goes wrong.Oh and it's going to trash an international agreement we made with our neighbours in Cameroon but we don't care about that.

Isn’t the entire purpose of this thread about listening to Leavers. What exactly is it that they want?

Remain account for 48% of the population - that’s still a huge number. Where are they being listened to?

This. Who listens to us? Who represents us? The Lib Dem's and their dog?

Leavers have their two options on the table. The withdrawal Agreement -that seems not to be good enough for them. Alternatively their lovely crash out which is not good enough for them either but is being planned for. So Leavers have two routes.

What options do remainers ( now the majority according to polls) have? Not allowed a referendum to reconsider the issue for at least what 40 years? What other options? A possible Norway+ which isn't what Norway want and isn't remaining anyway.

@timetobackout - watched it up until the part that the chap disagreed that a trade lane in the road (bare minimum required on a "smart" system)was physical infrastructure. He said it wasn't.
It is. Not sure he can say anything that gets past that.

{Remember one thing, Leavers are silent. }
What was all the 'we won get over it' about then?
Remember also that Remainers will be reminded of all the little freedoms that the Leavers have taken away.
It is healthy to IMPROVE people's lives, not box them in and take things away.