Leave voters? What's your alternative plan for the country if TM's Withdrawal Agreement doesn't get through?

[bellinisurge]

A small majority of people who voted in the referendum voted Leave. I presume they still want to Leave. How do we do that if the Withdrawal Agreement fails and Parliament has voted through an amendment which allows it to stop No Deal.
Talk me through it ...

Just in time - companies will adjust how they work.

True. At last a fact from a Brexiteer. They will adjust the location of their factories away from the UK.

I voted leave to retain sovereignty and I stand by that.

The sovereignty we've always had as confirmed by the ECJ this morning? @Weetabixandshreddies you must be harder of thinking than I thought!

Jasjas, make no mistakes, Leave would win again. The problem with the remain side is they like the sound of their own noise and believe their own hype. That's why they were caught out by the results two years ago.

The thing that will swing it massively towards Leave is the point on democracy. Even the big Remain hitters are making that point and Many, I mean many remainers and people I know who sit on the fence would vote Leave. I personally would vote Leave this time around and I am not that exercised about this issue. I believe whatever happens Great Britain will thrive. It's the people, the culture, and the history that makes Great Britain great. Not the EU. The UK can choose to be great with or without the EU. It was great before the EU and it can be great within or without.

It is the height of arrogance for those appointing themselves as "we know best" to unilaterally overturn the vote

Don't be ridiculous!

That is the whole basis of our democracy, its representative! they are there to do exactly that "to do what they think best"

If the electorate don't like what Parliament does, they can vote them out and Farages new party will be in power.

make no mistakes, Leave would win again

Awesome, then we should have no concerns about holding another referendum with a Remain option, right? Right?

We can argue blue in the face here. The majority of the UK wants out.

The events today are in keeping with democracy. The politicians must battle for the best for the UK, representing their constituency whilst delivering on democracy. It is not easy but I am happy that they are opposing the deal if it is not good enough and sending a strong signal to the EU that the UK will not be bullied.

The will of the people must be delivered. What would you rather have happened today? That everyone rolled over and accept something that does not deliver on the democratic will of the people?

What would have be pleasing to you today?

If the electorate don't like what Parliament does, they can vote them out and Farages new party will be in power.

So just say parliament ignores the referendum and keeps us in.

The people aren't happy and, at the next election, as you say vote Parliament out.

So what? It won't alter the fact that we've been forced back into the EU will it?

They should not have offered a referendum if they weren't prepared for a result, either way.

What would you rather have happened today?

Um, for our sovereign parliament to be allowed to have the meaningful vote on the Brexit deal tomorrow? Even if we agreed with the premise that the Will of the People was for Brexit to occur, how do you know whether the Will of the People was for No Deal or TM's Deal? Unless our sovereign parliament would be allowed to vote on it?

{ Weightsandmeasures Mon 10-Dec-18 20:26:49
Jasjas, make no mistakes, Leave would win again. }

As long as you enjoy a broken economy that is just fine.

{ It was great before the EU and it can be great within or without.}
Please explain in some detail how this will come about when the UK is a small island with limited natural resources that can't feed itself. The actions of 'leave' will drive a significant part of current manufacturing away and the 'darling' of the city, financial services are also on the move to the EU where it can continue to trade at favourable terms.
Waving the 'Union flag' energetically and shouting the UK is great won't make it so. Add in the now well publicised 'racial prejudice' element and you might have a financial and image problem to solve.

The EU is not democratic by any stretch of the imagination

The EU is a democratic organisation. This is an absolute fact.

The Commission is equivalent to our civil service. The Council of Ministers and the Parliament are democratically elected.

It is different to the U.K. form of democracy but it is entirely and absolutely democratic.

This is a Brexit myth.

weightsandmeasures

You can’t say the majority of the uk “want Brexit”. You can say leave won the referendum, which is true, but it doesn’t mean the majority of the uk want to leave - you have to factor in those who didn’t vote (implying satisfaction with status quo, hence why any small bit organisation doesn’t allow big decisions by bare majority), and also those who couldn’t vote eg 17 year olds.

The will of the people must be delivered. What would you rather have happened today? That everyone rolled over and accept something that does not deliver on the democratic will of the people?

Actually, re-reading this paragraph gives me the impression that you think today's events were about parliament voting against Brexit today? You do know that wasn't what the fuss was about, yes? And that it was supposed to happen tomorrow?

For what it is worth I think the UK should now leave, for the good of the EU.
Whether the UK leave 'hard' or 'soft' is up to you.

Parliament often makes decisions that are not the direct will of the people. That is one of the arguments in favour of representative democracies.

For example capital punishment abolished in 1965, public support for this has only just reached over 50%. Many other decisions Parliament makes are similar to this.

Parliament should lead public opinion and make decisions for the good of the country, it should not follow public opinion.

Yes, I would have concerns about a reams in option because the proposition is to split the leave vote two ways and have remain as one option. If it was another leave or remain straight vote, then I'd welcome another referendum if it was an exact re-run. I'm very confident of the outcome. Opinions on either side have changed much but now the lack of democracy, the bulking tactics of the EU, and the insulting behaviour of the Remain side will land another victory to the very silent majority. They are very silent but they will again let their voices be heard. I am sure of that.

I find the fight to undermine democracy outrageous. I would go out and vote Leave. That's how outrage I am. I would have never countenance voting Leave but I would fall on the side of what is right and democratic. I would never give up short term economic pain for destroying democracy long term. Economies go through cycles of boom and bust and they survive. Democracy would die a terrible death. There's no cycles for democracy. You either have it or you don't.

What will you give for the soul of the UK? A few pounds? The UK will prosper. It always has. Let democracy thrive.

The people vote Leave. Let's work together to get the best for the UK. All this endless squabbling and rehashing two years ago is making everyone sick.

Moussemouse, since when has it been thus? The people follow the will of Parliament and not the other way around? I'm not British but I'm pretty sure that's not how it works here.

I think you need to go back to studying UK history. Even starting from Oliver Cromwell will help massively with understanding the function of Parliament.

Democracy is about fighting for what you believe is right.

Its certainly not about kowtowing to the prevailing winds.

What is best for the UK ? to remain in the EU and fight for change from within.

weightsandmeasures if you thought remain would win would you back another referendum? Or say that the British people should be denied the opportunity to express dissatisfaction with what has occurred and change their mind?

Do you really think the latter is democratic?

Democracy is not a black and white issue. Telling people they are stuck with a decision they made whether they would wish to change their minds or not is very problematic....

.... as is a second referendum.

As I say, fucking mess.

Stop banging on about 'democracy' you are embarrassing yourself.

Democracy is not one thing, it is not black and white. There are many different forms of democracy and the U.K. has one particular form.

You evidently don't understand how British democracy works as you keep on making statements that evidence your lack of understanding.

A referendum with 3 options would not use FPTP, but alternative vote or a similar second preference system. Educate yourself.

When was it thus?

Now - that's why I gave you an example to prove my point.

I also think my understanding of both British history and the British constitution may be a bit more extensive than yours.

{What will you give for the soul of the UK? A few pounds? The UK will prosper. It always has. Let democracy thrive. }

Fine words, now back them up.
The exercise so far is costing each person around £1,000 a year.
With the departure of significant chunks of manufacturing, there is a very strong likelihood of up to 2 Million unemployed as car plants close/relocate, and the feeder companies collapse. Of course the government will rush in and 'create' new jobs (don't hold your breath).
Trade deals. May has a couple of Billion worth of trade with Africa pencilled in, shame the trade with the EU is 200 times that which risks going.
What is the UK going to make or do that is significantly cheaper and better than what any other country is doing?
When you have properly worked out answers to these questions you can then press ahead with Leaving. By the way, the government don't have the answers, they are still busy lying over the questions so it is down to YOU.

Let's work together to get the best for the UK

Yes let's all chant ommmmmmm (apart from Remainers, who should STFU as if they're all chopped liver, yet at the same time be platitudinously acknowledged to exist insofar as the Will isn't unanimous) and that will make it all fine.

TheElementssong, I listened to the entire thing and I have been following this closely for far too long. But hey, I'm sure I'm not one of the intelligent Remainers so there's no way I could have possibly understood what was going on today.

To alleviate your shock and horror at the stupidy of anyone who does not agree with you, let me clarify. My comment was clearly in relation to May's deal. It does not deliver on the will of the people. Ministers made it clear that she would be wasting her time going ahead with tomorrow. Hey, I suspect you knew that that was what I was talking about but like many Remainers are quick to go "ah no one knows what they are talking about, but me, me, me".

That deal does not deliver the will of the people but what many of you seem to have wanted is for ministers to capitulate. Today was democracy playing out. As I clearly said before, the ministers must stand up for their constituents and at the same time find a way to deliver the verdict. They did what they had to do by sending a clear message to May and Brussels that that deal would be voted down. Amen to democracy.

But what would have rather happened today? That May not listen and push forward with tomorrow, ignoring the clear warnings? And when she would have been defeated, then would you have complained that it was not democratic?

Is democracy in your eye only another referendum where Remain wins?

Nope, still not getting it.

Apparently you know for a fact that the Deal is Not the Will of the People. The Deal was very likely to be rejected by Parliament had the vote gone ahead. Therefore, the Will of the People would not have been denied. TM pulled the vote because she was going to lose. So if anybody was denying the Will, it was her.

All I'm seeing here is the same arguments about pestilents, earthquakes, and dead bodies piling up.

There was a vote, one side won. Theresa May is doing her best to give the Remain side some concessions. However, this fact cannot be erased; Leave won the vote. That vote must be respected. Remainers do not have to shut up but they cannot expect Parliament to undermine democracy, overturn the will of the people just to please the side that lost.

Remainers are certainly not silent. They rule the airwaves, radio shows, etc. Exactly as they did before the referendum. The biggest failure of the Remainers is that they most certainly will not shut up for a moment to listen. They like the sound of their own noises and righteous indignation. They are oh so virtuous. But, whilst they talk themselves into a furore, the silent majority is still there, unchanged and unmoved. Now the other side won't even listen to the predictions of the sky will fall and the earth will open up.

Remain side say Leave side lies but Remain side ignores their lies.

Immediately after the referendum results Armageddon was supposed to have begun.

Well gosh. That's quite a non-sequitur