Can I ask why if the British people were lied to on the campaign for the referendum you don’t want another vote?

[Inkspellme]

I’ve been curious about this question a good while and it often pops up in conversation in my house. I live in Ireland and in this country when we have a referendum we have the referendum commission to monitor it. It’s role is to post through several media types unbiased information about the choice presented to the voter. Every person in the country who is registered to vote receives this information. We also monitor the radio and tv coverage to ensure each side gets equal time to campaign for the result they want.

Which is why when I look at what happened in the British referendum I am amazed at how the information was presented to you.

It’s been acknowledged that you were lied to in the campaign. And yet now I hear your politicians talk of respecting the vote of the people when the people were given such little respect by them.

Why not a second referendum considering the first was influenced by false information. In Ireland it would have been challenged through the courts and likely to have been deemed necessary to redo. I know as a Republic we hold referenda very often so are much more experienced but I am still amazed at how the voters were treated.

I think it was more about confidence and eagerness rather than arrogance about getting trade deals with other countries.

I disagree, it was implied on many occasions during the campaign that leaving and doing new trade deals was a simple and straightforward process. We know that this is not the case.

In any deal there will have to be compromises and the deal will have to be mutually beneficial. So what compromises are we going to have to make to get a deal with the US for example? Trump has already made noises about the NHS and the US agri businesses can’t wait for a the UK food industry to be free of EU regulations. Other countries will want agreements on immigration and welfare rights. This will all be even more difficult if the UK is negotiating from a position of desperation following a no deal Brexit.

So in ‘getting our country back’ we are actually going to have to compromise and give a lot more away. This was never exactly explained during the referendum.

I voted remain but don't think another referendum would resolve anything unless there was a massive shift towards remain. I think it would just create more division, even the campaigners for a People's Vote are divided about what would be on the ballot. It's all such a mess.

{So in ‘getting our country back’ we are actually going to have to compromise and give a lot more away. This was never exactly explained during the referendum.}
Worse, it was deliberately glossed over or lied about.

I have no issue with accepting the result of the referendum...and I say that as a Remainer.

I do however think it needs much more time so exiting is done slowly and properly which will keep things running smoothly.

GirlsBlouse However I don't know of anyone who has thought that we are going back to our empire days!

Really? This bloke obviously did...

Quietrebel, I think everyone who hasn't heard much about Plan A+ should read that article.

Leave voters, would you prefer Theresa' May's deal, Plan A+ or a Norway-style deal?

Referendums aren't legally binding. I would rather the government just said "no sorry it's a fucking stupid idea for many reasons - we're not going to doing it" - but no one has the guts to do that

twofingerstoEverything

*GirlsBlouse However I don't know of anyone who has thought that we are going back to our empire days!

Really? This bloke obviously did...*

He is one person. He may represent a minority even. But do you think he represents the majority of those who voted to leave? I think it is a useful tool to use ignorant idiotic people like this to try and portray all leavers as stupid Brexiteers who had no genuine legitimate concerns about being in the EU or reasons for leaving the EU. Tarnishing peoples character is a below the belt tactic and closes debate. A better tool is using persuasion and informing people if you want to change their minds.

look at who's going to profit from brexit.
I guess there are remainers such as the Kinnocks and Peter Mandelson who are very anxious not to lost their substantial and tax free pensions.

They still get their pensions

...as do Farage and the other UKIP MEPs who did sweet FA at the European Parliament (unlike the other MEPs, who did work and contribute to the democratic process there).

Indeed, they have been ordered to pay back money that they fraudulently claimed as expenses to support UKIP political activity.

Thanks for the put right about the non binding referendum - it explains a lot!

It does seem time that the amount of information about both choices and consequences is so much clearer now for Britain that a second referendum for a more informed people would be a choice.

But do you think he represents the majority of those who voted to leave?
No. Neither did I claim that he did. However, your own arguments are weak if you will not acknowledge that some people do think Brexit will mean a return to empire or that some people believed the NHS bus lie. We have been told over and over on these threads that NOBODY voted for those reasons. Well, I'm sorry, but they did.

Tarnishing peoples character is a below the belt tactic and closes debate. So is claiming that you don't know anybody that voted leave for the most ridiculous of reasons, like .
I am bloody pissed off that my own future and my children's future is being threatened by such stupidity and think I've been polite about it for too long actually.
Oh, and also, I don't think 'persuasion' works on these people. Their positions are entrenched, and I would be the first to admit my own is, too. When people have seen the government's impact statements, watched the shambles of 'negotiations' and still think leaving without a deal is a good idea, then no amount of persuasion is going to have any effect.

Oh God trying to explain the referendum. What an embarassing corrupt horrific shambles.

I believe it was a perfect storm of a horridiously impartial media, weak opposition, politically inept prime ministers, foreign interference and politically and economically ignorant voters.

The UK has no real history of referenda. Cameron used them occasionally as an easy way to enforce his political decisions.

The press have been out of control for decades. They are mostly foreign owned by people with a clear political agenda.

The UK population doesn't understand how democracy should run properly. "We got the most votes, so get over it" is not democracy. It is not taught in schools and merely incorrectly referred to by the biased press when convenient. Therefore the best model for "democratic voting" is the x-factor in the UK.

Hardly anyone knew about or understood trade deals pre-Brexit. As TM and DD showed. The leave campaign clearly exploited this and the remain side exaggerated.

The remain side also had their hands tied because a lot of people were blaming their undeniably shitty living standards on immigration (aka EU), which Cameron and Osbourne could hardly admit was their fault through austerity.

I also believe there was Russian interference and the electoral rules can not cope with the advent of social media.

There is also TM's arrogance and disdain for any democratic process in the HC (the irony!). Where do I start (and get all the details right?). But she has constantly tried to dodge any vote by MPs on Brexit. She has delayed (is refusing?) to allow investigation of Aaron Banks.

Another thing is the withdrawal negotiations have been appalling handled. The leave politicians have acted like petulant teenagers and have continued to twist facts and misrepresent reality ( EU bullying us). This attitude is reflected in the leave voters. An appalling pig-headed refusal to look facts in the face (blackadder) fits well. There has been hardly any reasoned debate.

I am also wary of another referendum. I want to go back to the EU but will that be a choice? I foresee a horrendous ordeal just over the question on the ballot paper. This government are in my view political sociopaths or really inept (take your pick). I don't trust them with very little time or motivation to do a better job second time round. In fact I despair of my country so much that I moved. Our family have moved to somewhere where we earn twice as much with much better living and working conditions. However i am really invested in Brexit as i would like to move back one day and am married to someone from the EU.

Persuasion has worked with me and I would vote remain in a second referendum and I have written to my MP about a second referendum. I wish I had voted differently in the first referendum. You are right that some people voted because they thought we would get our empire back. You are right some people voted because of what they read on a bus. But people voted for all sorts of reasons which were legitimate to them. Some for stupid reasons but I think most were because of the negativity about the EU that was presented by our governments and media over 45 years and that became engrained in our thoughts. As I said, persuasion has worked with me and am sure has worked with many others. It won't work with everyone but it's possible it might work with enough people to turn things around if there is a second referendum. But my point earlier was that focus on here always seems to be on a minority of leavers who voted for erroneous or dubious reasons. I think the majority voted for understandable reasons. There were lies too and I think for something as important as this, it invalidates the referendum. In fact I'm not sure any of this should have been left to the people.

GirlsBlouse17
In fact I'm not sure any of this should have been left to the people.
HEAR HEAR

I don't watch the X-Factor but as far as I know (if it is like Strictly ), it is a good variant of an extended STV system - but one in which you can change your vote. Every week, the one with the lowest public vote gets eliminated. Everyone can then shuffle their votes around the following week, according to their possibly revised preferences.

A bit like the French do with their two rounds of voting, to ensure that whoever does get elected has a majority of the votes. So they can do a "Protest" vote the first round and in the 2nd and final round, with only 2 candidates, can cast their sensible vote

As voting systems go, it is a damn sight better than our FPTP system

Unfortunately we had a referendum about our voting system not that long ago and FPTP won so unlikely to be another vote on this soon

We did indeed have a vote - but it was for shittiest of alternatives . AV is not a STV system (used in Scotland for council elections in multi-councillor wards), nor is it the d'Hondt system used in the EU elections, nor the hybrid d'Hondt system (combination of FPTP individuals and list candidates elected under the d'Hondt system) used in the Scottish Parliament, which are proper PR systems.

The LibDems were conned into accepting the AV referendum as part of their Coalition deal with the Tories where they were promised a referendum on PR.

I honestly can't remember which way I voted, because the choices were crap

I just hope more people adopt your very mature attitude GirlsBlouse17.

Compromise, listening and being able to change your views on things are not signs of weakness.

This whole fiasco has certainly taught me lessons I didn't want to learn.

Thank you Mousemoose . It has taught me alot too. I just want this Pandoras box to be closed now

This summarises the first vote for me.

1. Do you want a nice pig hidden in this poke? Er yes maybe?

Then with more information available for the next vote.

1. This is the pig that was inside. She's called Pandora.Do you still want it now?

I totally agree we were lied to (on both sides) - but I have zero faith we won't be lied to for any future referendum.

I actually wouldn't mind if we had another go - but we will get a pile of lies again.

I’ve really had a great insight into some of the Brexit details that had slipped past the media reports - the personal insight from you all has been really interesting.

Any further referendum will be tainted by the lies of the first.

Some Leave voters have followed the news and shifted their views on the basis of information that’s come out over the past 2 years.

But many haven’t. For many it’s simply an intrenched position that has no relation to fact and cannot be influenced by actualities.

I don’t believe a referendum is the way to solve a matter of this complexity, and they are no substitute for government.