Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?

[RedToothBrush]

Tick tick tick.

What do we think?

Yes? No?

Another week of wtf-ing at British politics.

Whyme The reports I have read is that the EU would extend for any ref with Remain as an option.

They would not dare specify the other option(s) that would be voted on.

The public would be so outraged - dictatorship by Brussels !

It would be like excluding Labour from the next GE

I thought that was their plan ?

It's PR, LeClerc
The EU has to avoid the appearance of "bullying / punishment" and those in the EU who are sympathetic to the UK's plight would be very indignant if the EU shut off this way back out of disaster.

Extension for more than a month would be complicated by the EP elections and UK MEPs
However, the EU planned for that some time ago

Provision for UK seats in 2019-2024 session of EP:

http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-7-2018-REV-1/en/pdf

{The public would be so outraged - dictatorship by Brussels !}
Which sadly loops us back to the need to actually leave.
It has to be SEEN that the UK has left the EU.
It also has to be seen that it was the UK's decision.

Hasenstein, I'm totally with you. She is truly vile. I never had much sympathy for her before and now I have nothing but contempt. She is
sickening.

Hasenstein

I know...
I've said this before I think but the issue for some Tories is to have foreigners with equal rights (even though EU citizens don't have representation in government other than at local level, FOM grants all EU citizens the same rights). That is unbearable for them. Foreigners must know their place. That's what the "jump the queue" comment was really about.

I also think this sits at the core of Brexit. It's not crude xenophobia per se (as in let's persecute foreigners) but a strong sense that EU citizens are living 'above their station'.

There is no automatic anything RTB, we are dealing with unknowns. That is what is set to happen in theory. But we don’t know yet whether extension or revocation of A50 is possible. Barnier is talking about extending transition to 2022.

Labour is working on plans to amend key aspects of the Brexit legislation that has not yet passed through the Commons, to try to prevent no deal option being approved. Over 50 changes to legislation would be required for a no deal outcome, so there will opportunies to pass votes that are binding on this. A public vote on the terms of the WA is a possibility, for example. I’m not saying it will succeed, simply that that is what is being attempted.

I don’t disagree that the point of the WA is to avoid a crash out, but this is all unchartered territory. We don’t actually know what will happen in the scenario that the U.K. is trying to desperately to agree a WA but failing to do so within the timeframe.

Be clear though - this deal is a very bad one for the U.K. - not the EU’s fault - our government’s own red lines are to blame. Changing it in the future once it’s agreed will be difficult and there are no guarantees.

My hopeful outcome

First vote fails spectacularly.
In the meantime ECJ decides a50 can be revoked.

Faced with the choice of a no deal or staying , TM decides to revoke rather than trust public to not vote for no deal ( neither do I - many would have no idea of the consequences)

TM resigns and a Remainer becomes PM
Corbyn is ousted by (my) Labour Party for being such a twat over Brexit. Replaced by a leftish replacement not a Blairite!

We stop having to read and write in this thread and get back to reading about Unreasonable MIL, Cheeky Fuckers and Badger soup.

I've said this before I think but the issue for some Tories is to have foreigners with equal rights (even though EU citizens don't have representation in government other than at local level, FOM grants all EU citizens the same rights). That is unbearable for them. Foreigners must know their place. That's what the "jump the queue" comment was really about.

It's irrefutable that some people voted out of sheer racism. I don't care how many Leavers come on here and say they didn't. Some did. And those that didn't enabled and emboldened those that did. To such an extent that the Prime Minister of our country - who we are supposed to feel represents us - can come out with sub-EDL soundbites with no objection in the national press.

But, hey. Let's all come together, eh ?

a strong sense that EU citizens are living 'above their station'

And this extends to people saying "why should they have any more rights than us?" (in terms of right of movement within the EU, which will be lost here after Brexit). Quite forgetting that EU citizens in the UK, however long they've been here, already lack the most important right of all, a vote at national level. And were already denied any right to vote in the referendum.

Being British is best in their eyes and they're going to make damn sure everyone knows this. It's just more evidence of the British sense that you have to kow-tow to privilege and for many people, this is the only "privilege" they've got left to cling onto, so let's use it to make the foreigners kow-tow to us.

My hopeful outcome

alternatively, there's a reason that dramas are being made about Peterloo ....

Well maybe but I am still keeping a close eye on and suppporting the. ECJ case.

Thanks for the reminder that I still want to go and see that film

With apologies to anyone who has experienced this IRL, to me the UK is on a trolley in A+E gradually bleeding to death and a couple of senior surgeons and a few junior doctors are arguing the toss about how to save the patient. The time is fast running out where organ failure (already started) is followed by death.

{We stop having to read and write in this thread and get back to reading about Unreasonable MIL, Cheeky Fuckers and Badger soup.}
I look forward to deleting my MN 'membership' so I can get on with things. There is a tread about cars, but it is nearly as much tumblweed as Dadsnet.

I read somewhere (sorry, couldn’t find the source again, might even be on these threads) that the EU would be willing to defer Brexit day until June 2019, which is when the new MEPs take up their seats. Any further and it would run into problems re. the EP elections, although there are possible solutions for that too (current UK MEPs staying on until the UK exits, for instance).

It's irrefutable that some people voted out of sheer racism. I don't care how many Leavers come on here and say they didn't. Some did. And those that didn't enabled and emboldened those that did. To such an extent that the Prime Minister of our country - who we are supposed to feel represents us - can come out with sub-EDL soundbites with no objection in the national press.

I'm not even sure it's self-acknowledged as racism, rather an inchoate and unexamined feeling that British is best and foreigners (as opposed to simple manifest reality) are constantly trying to disprove this, so it has to be constantly asserted.

But I do notice instances of newly unrepressed racism, comments not just about EU citizens, but "the others" in a generic sense. People who have always felt this way, but felt societal pressure to suppress their feeling, now see themselves as liberated to express their long-held views (and expect this to be supported, or at least tolerated, by the recipients of the comments.

Tatiana "to try to prevent no deal option being approved."
"Over 50 changes to legislation would be required for a no deal outcome,"

What do you mean ?

No Deal is what automatically happens unless the UK govt and the EU agree a specific WA

Even if - very unlikely - Labour got the votes for an amendment ruling out No Deal, that still wouldn't stop it actually happening,
because the UK Parliament cannot unilaterally change an international treaty

i.e. cannot change the terms of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty

^It doesn't matter how many motions of disapproval the HoC passes

That is not revoking A50^

It doesn't matter that the UK passed laws leaving it in a hopeless muddle if there is No Deal

But I do notice instances of newly unrepressed racism, comments not just about EU citizens, but "the others" in a generic sense.

Not you of course, dear ...

I'm reminded of the American in Fawlty Towers .... can't you see what a crummy dump this is ?

If all the people who insist on trumpeting how fucking Brilliant Britain Is, put 1/100th that effort into addressing the fact that the 6th largest economy in the world has areas of poverty that would be shameful in any other country, it would be a paradise.

Back to Fawlty Towers

More strikes Fawlty. Why do we bother ?
(sotto voce) Actually I didn't know you did Major ....

Remainer MPs seem as delusional about the limits of British power as Brexiters

International law won't go away just because the UK doesn't like it

DGR

"If all the people who insist on trumpeting how fucking Brilliant Britain Is, put 1/100th that effort into addressing the fact that the 6th largest economy in the world has areas of poverty that would be shameful in any other country, it would be a paradise."

In your customarily spot-on nutshell!

Lisbon Treaty Article 50

1. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or,

failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2,

unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

As an Atheist, it's really, really, really hard to wonder that we've lost something by people losing faith. You shouldn't need a sky fairy to tell you to be nice to your neighbour, and treat them as you'd hope they'd treat you. But it seems (and I mischievously find myself wondering about any correlations ....) that clearly some of society did.

Do you know why i hold the door open for anyone ? Because it has fuck-all to do with them, and everything to do with my craving for the slight serotonin rush you get from helping others.

But then, as an Atheist I hear self-proclaimed Christians like Theresa May and just feel a bit of sick in the back of my throat.

unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

So 27 individual countries need to agree. Quite aside from showing the Brexiteer bollocks of "lost sovereignty" for what it is, that's quite an ask. Spain won't agree unless they have something about Gibraltar, for a start. Ireland would need more than fine words over the GFA and their relationship with the UK.