People’s Vote Delusion

[PersonaNonGarter]

It isn’t going to happen. For the following reasons:

1. May Government won’t vote for a second referendum
2. No new post-May Tory Government will vote for a second referendum
3. Jeremy Corbyn and those in the Labour Party front benches won’t vote for a second referendum
4. There is no agreement about what the referendum would ask.
5. There is no plausible timetable for a referendum.

Why would Corbyn want a second referendum? He is a Leaver wanting to win in Leave seats. And he wants to implement his domestic agenda, not waste any further time on Brexit votes. The current situation SUITS him.

An example of the damage you are doing to the country, do you even care? so long as you stuff it to the elites :(

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45944817?fbclid=IwAR27SFZTunykz9F2vajscyvY4a3CXx008dHuVapIuvUwT_oy3w8GZF_VjY8

surfer you have a real problem with bear dont you? is that because they constantly call you out on your brexity bullshit soundbites and your faux victimhood? when did leavers become so snowflakey?

Thanks talk

surfer I'm just going to leave you to it for now because your comments are becoming increasingly unhinged.

dapple aside from the fact you find the most tenuous of links to bring a 2 year old thread up, you haven't answered my question.

I didn't say everyone needed to be informed of everything, just that they should have a basic understanding of what is at stake and what the possible outcomes were.

You are trying to argue that everyone has a right to vote even if they have no understanding of the subject at hand.

I disagree and you haven't put an argument forward to convince me otherwise.

gamerwidow is right. A referendum is not a mandate, so a vote isn’t necessary. The Government (of whichever party) could scrap the whole thing if they wanted. They won’t though.

But there is a huge difference between saying voters should be well informed and that only the well informed should be allowed to vote.

This is where our divide comes from dapple as I don't see there is a 'huge difference' there at all.

OK, you can't physically stop them from voting but I think people have a duty to inform themselves of what they are voting for or against if the wish to use their privilege of voting.

Those who fought for our right to vote didn't do so thinking we'd just turn up and stick a cross on a box without thinking about what it meant.

@surferjet

Thing is - even if every single leaver on mumsnet ( all 5 of them ) suddenly said they regret their decision, can see no good in brexit etc etc, nothing will change.
...
A few 100 leavers on the internet telling remainers they regret their decision will change nothing.

Disagree - this is exactly how momentum toward the remain or EEA/EFTA+CU cause is generated. Each leaver that changes their mind will be more persuasive in converting other leavers precisely because leavers share a common starting point (i.e. having voted leave). Consequently their thought processes and journey in moving to a remain or soft-Brexit position will likely be more understandable/relatable to other leavers. Moreover each individual is not restricted to MN - they can go onto discuss, persuade, no longer support, etc ... in many ways including other social media, IRL, marching, writing to MPs etc ...

@MyNameIsArthur - hope you are well and heard back from your MP. It would be useful to get your input to this discussion, I think you're now in favour of a referendum - care to share your views here?

@falcon5 - would you care to contribute as well? Would be interesting to get your take.

So far as people having their rights removed, I'm assuming you are talking here principally about FOM? Well, that was the choice at the referendum. Remain and people get to keep their freedom of movement, Leave and people lose it.

It most certainly was not. Farage extolled the Norway version, which as a member of the EEA is part of Schengen and has signed up to FoM although I suspect he didn't realise that. Hannan post referendum said 'no one is talking of leaving the Single Market' which comes with FoM. The 2015 Tory Manifesto had a commitment to the Single Market, which you have to assume that since Cameron won, was a commitment that voters were happy with. Now May removed this commitment in the 2017 manifesto, and lost her majority, and only now governs with the help of a party that no voter in GB can vote for. Which strongly suggests that it wasn't Remain = FoM, Leave = No FoM.

A referendum is not a mandate, so a vote isn’t necessary. The Government (of whichever party) could scrap the whole thing if they wanted. They won’t though.

I think this is some of the reasoning behind the People's vote campaign. Legally the Referendum wasn't binding, and the PM who made the commitment to stay and implement the result, couldn't run away fast enough. But Politically it was taken to be binding, so a political mechanism needs to be found to get May out of the impasse she has got herself into, where she has promised mutually contradictory things to different people.

@Peregrina

... so a political mechanism needs to be found to get May out of the impasse she has got herself into.

Agree and would extend this beyond May to Corbyn, responsible conservative MPs and Parliament generally. They all (well most of them) agreed to an ill-constructed referendum in '16 and then foolishly threw away our bargaining position by voting through A50 in '17 and are now collectively realising the appallingly weak position this has left our country in (it was a revealing piece of drama when David Davis confirmed to parliament that UK would leave without a deal if nothing was agreed by Mar '19 - audible gasps). A referendum is the most democratic way to reverse the '16 result but would accept any of the alternatives to avoid having to live the consequences of Brexit.

Either reverse or confirm, of course. But if the result Leave is confirmed then it still leaves May potentially with problems of trying to square the circle. That might depend on what question was put and how it was worded.

We live in a democracy and voted to leave the EU. I don't understand why some people have a problem with this.

So far, I've learned that the "winning" side in the Referendum feels victimised by the other side still not being on side with their arguments, and in fact angry that anyone at all has noticed the utter disaster that Brexit is turning into.

@Peregrina
Agree and worth noting that if leave is confirmed then (as has been previously stated by others) that the division will intensify (possibly dramatically if its no-deal). Key point, if referendum doesn't include remain as an option then it will be viewed as invalid by remain supporters.

Leavers you need to bring the remainers with you if you want to bridge the divide. Many remainers will grudgingly live with an EEA/EFTA+CU option (personally will always push for full remain) but leavers will need to articulate their support for this position to parliament, other leavers and remainers - you need to engage, mobilise and get campaigning to make this option happen. At the moment leave still seem to be pushing for cake & eat-it (canada plus-plus) with the PM and government slowly realising this is not going to happen. Urge you all to push for something realistic and acceptable to EU and the UK at large.

"We live in a democracy"

Two of the features of a democracy are

• dissent
• voting at regular intervals

@Ingurr
So you'd be happy to accept no-deal or a minimal Canada-style option? Neither of these options addresses the NI border issue. Both of these options will significantly damage UK economy. How are you going to address these points? What happens when Nissan and Airbus stop investing and/or leave? What are the affected communities going to do when large-scale unemployment arrives? Thatcher had a (too slow but semi-successful) plan to address the mass unemployment that she triggered in the 80s. I see no similar plan from present UK government.

Ingurr/leavers, tell us this analysis is wrong and explain why remainers should stop trying to get the country to review the '16 referendum result.

@indistinct
Key point, if (a potential third) referendum does include Remain as an option then it will be viewed as invalid by many Leave supporters.

“Leavers you need to bring the remainers with you if you want to bridge the divide”
Why?! Why do you presume to tell me what I should campaign for?

What you are urging us to push for is something that is acceptable to (some) remainers, not including yourself? I am left wondering why you’d want this?

We live in a democracy and voted to leave the EU. I don't understand why some people have a problem with this.

We have a Parliamentary democracy where we accept that we need to hold elections every five years, with electoral law honed over a good number of years.

We have a Local Government democracy where we accept that we need to elect the council every three years - some do this by voting for all at one go, some elect in thirds at a time. The rules here have also been honed over a good number of years.

It's accepted that one electorate cannot bind a future one.

I fail to understand why this particular Referendum is held to be valid for all time? If that was the case why wasn't the 1975 referendum valid for all time? Recollect the quote that countries which cannot change their minds “cease to be democracies”.

I will never accept that a referendum leave win based on lies and empty promises is a democratic one; I know this because have kept all of the leaflets that were delivered prior to the referendum. Someone in my group, wearing a Peoples Vote t shirt was beaten up on a train on the way back from the march; this is what Brexit is doing to this country and I find it heartbreaking.

I don't have a problem with the result other than disagreeing with it. But I want Leavers to own the consequences. Which they won't do. They are going to range from fucking catastrophic to bad. And all points in between.
If I am wrong I will be delighted to admit it. Because the worst thing that will have happened is me being wrong.

We live in a democracy and voted to leave the EU. I don't understand why some people have a problem with this.
The 'problem' is that leaving the EU isn't a piece of piss.
There is still no plan/vision around what sort of 'deal' we want (apart from the wholly unacceptable cake/eat) and a no deal scenario would cause untold damage to the country. If you can't understand why people have a problem with that, you must lack imagination.

angry that anyone at all has noticed the utter disaster that Brexit is turning into.

I think this sums it up for me.

I cannot understand this mentality of berating people who dare to challenge this mess whilst simultaneously refusing to even acknowledge the consequences, let alone try and defend them.

And all the while stating that not following through on the vote to leave would be a breach of democracy.

Democracy is not, and never was, about following through on an ill informed decision when more information is available, just because a decision was made at a point time.

I have a problem with Leavers trying to rewrite the script. "No one said it would be easy."

Oh yes, they jolly well did. Easiest deal in history, all sorted in an afternoon, they will want a deal because they need us more than we need them and on and on. 28 months later and the Government still can't agree, but can't agree to try to depose May either.

It does belatedly look as though the Govt. have realised that they must find more money for the NHS. The cynic in me says that is because they know it's the area where they are most vulnerable to lost votes, not a commitment to a health service.

Well, the pack mentality remains alive and kicking.

The problem is because the result was too close and Farage himself said before the referendum if it were 52:48 remain, he'd be calling for another.

He wouldn’t have got one

I fail to understand why this particular Referendum is held to be valid for all time? If that was the case why wasn't the 1975 referendum valid for all time?

The ref in 1975 was enacted, the 2016 ref will be enacted. In the future, if there is the support (and it’s going to be as disastrous as some people think) I would expect a political party to run with another ref to go back in in its manifesto and romp home. That would certainly appear to be the pattern of things.