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Brexit

Westministenders: A Change of Mood

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2018 17:57

A day after 700,000 people came from all over the country to march on the streets of the Capital to protest and say there needs to be another vote on what next.

Has it changed anything?

Well the mood is changing.

Former leavers are starting to have doubts. Not necessarily about leaving but certainly about how its been handled. Some have ridicilous ideas on how it should be done which are not grounded in any sort of reality. But others are starting to realise that a lot of what Remainers said, at least has some truth, in terms of the complexity and practical problems of leaving.

The EU who previoiusly have been exasperated but accomodating are starting to baton down the hatches and move to a no deal position. The EU summit in November will now no longer include the UK because progress has not been made, although we have been told this is changeable if we have a change of heart. At the summit they will talk about No Deal planning. There has been talk that the final deadline for the UK is 13th December, but there are also some saying this is optimistic and in reality its the middle of November in political terms because this is when EU countries will start committing large amounts of money to No Deal. At this point, it becomes much more difficult for leaders to justify to their own population 'wasting' money on no deal measures.

Back in the UK, the penny is starting to drop. Peston has talked about just how far away we really are from a deal. He's the first main stream journalist to say it outloud. Everyone else is still maintaining we will get a deal, when May just does not have the power in her own party to manage it. She is now reaching out to Labour to help her get a deal as its her only option left open to her now.

May has to get the budget through parliament before the EU summit - on the 1st November - and the DUP are already threatening to vote against it as leverage to get their own way on Brexit.

Tory MP Johnny Mercer is so fed up of it all, that he's come out saying that that he wouldn't vote Tory now, and its all a "complete shit show".

This apparently hasn't gone down too well with other Tories as they feel it means that its more likely to provoke a leadership challenge sooner rather than later. It has been reported that May has been effectively been put on notice and she 72 hours to sort it out. She has been called to a 1922 Committee Meeting on Wednesday to answer to backbenchers.

Up until now, its been thought that the 48 letters wouldn't be sent to Graham Brady because she would win a no confidence vote. Its now being reported that there is a creeping fear that the party would end up with a situation like Labour where they were unable to get rid of Corbyn, and if a leadership challenge was launched they would need to just get rid of her now.

Quick revision:

  1. To trigger a confidence vote 48 letters (15% of Tory MPs) need to be sent to Graham Brady, the chair of the 1922 Committee.
  2. There is then a vote, and the leader needs 156 MPs (50.1%) of the vote to win or they face a leadership election.
  3. If there is no confidence vote, another one can't be called for twelve months.

There has been talk of David Davis as an interim leader, which isn't true; its just the start of another round of positioning as Tories smell the blood of a wounded leader. Johnson is also circling and isn't impressed at David Davis seemingly throwing his hat in the ring, despite previously he would just retire.

Triggering a no confidence vote, just before the EU summit around the time of the budget could be just about the worst timing possible if thats the case...

... it would leave British politics in complete chaos and the EU will have effectively run out of time and will have to commit themselves to No Deal anyway.

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lonelyplanetmum · 24/10/2018 11:05

Why is this super injunction a hot topic right now? Is it a case of 'look a squirrel'?

The only way it would have a significant impact other than squirrelling would be in the highly unlikely event it were a key member of the ERG.
Can you imagine ...

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:09

Why is this super injunction a hot topic right now? Is it a case of 'look a squirrel'? I mean the public know how sleazy these celebrity / business/ politician men are anyways. It will be case of juicy news today and forgotten by tomorrow.

Its a lot to do with freedom of the press, which for a variety of reasons is under a lot of pressure at the moment.

The story can not be reported because of an injuction, but the Telegraph claim it is in the public interest to know.

Whether it is about a celebrity or not is irrelevant. Its about the concept of what the public have a right to know or not, and the role of the press in informing the public of such issues.

The public interest to know arguement is generally related to abuses of power.

We know that the government has been - unusually - using NDA for parts of Brexit planning.

The question is, do we have a right to know what they are trying to conceal? The purpose of NDAs is always to conceal something. Is it in the public interest to know if we are going to have such massive food storages and medical supply shortages because of haulage issues that its a national crisis? Of course it should be.

James Patrick has actually been arguing the point that

James Patrick @J_amesp
Would be a shame if copies of that letter were leaked and GPs immediately were told to read PIDA1998 - S43J in particular.

100% public interest disclosure.

Up until now, the legal effectiveness of NDAs has been somewhat questioned because of the public interest clause.

If we are getting to a situation where a senior well known businessman has been taking out NDAs to cover up criminal behaviour, its hard to argue that this isn't in the public interest to know. It demonstrates that rich people can pay off people and are subject to different laws in practice than ordinary people. That fundamentally represents that the rule of law has broken down.

It also means that the effectiveness of NDAs is proven. So you will get them used more and more, and people will be less willing to speak out, when they are used in a way which abuses power and hides something in the public interest.

It also would encourage government to use them even more widely.

So if you think the Super Injunction Story is just about 'Schelbs and who they are shagging', you are not understanding the huge ramifications this case has and how much it undermines both the rule of law and the role of the press in holding power to account.

Its all about the Press - Rule of Law - Those with Authority dynamic and relationship. NDAs seeks to destroy the balance of power in favour of those with power. Its how authoritarianism destroys your rights and power in society and subjects you to whatever abuses they care to think of.

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RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:10

So no. Its not a squirrel.

Its a hugely important story.

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MyBrexitIsIll · 24/10/2018 11:12

Lola yep I feel the same.
Probably made worse by the fact I could ‘go back home’ (even though after 20 years and having spent more time here then any other country in the world, I’m not so sure this is still ‘home’) but for the dcs, it would be uprooting them. Even if they have my nationality as well as been british (which I’m not)
They are in Y9 and Y10 so really the worse position re exams.

I agree about been treated as ‘Not one of us’ which means that my aim is to leave once the yongest has done his A levels. I have enough of been treated as ‘lesser than’.
In the mean time, I’m not so sure. I’m working in preparing myself for a No Deal and food shortages as well as medicines issues.
Whilst wondering we shouldn’t just leave before March, take a gamble (and rely on my parents finding a suitable house so they can give us a roof when we arrive)

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:14

From 10th Oct

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
Road Haulage Association at Brexit committee today confirm my story from March - a number of organisations obliged to sign non disclosure agreements before discussions re: Brexit border with Government -not impressed with what they have been told, but blocked from talking details

Here’s the Sky News #brexitforensics story from March: RHA conforming they signed that the customs system they were shown “won’t work” Government “not listening”

no doubt in my mind from multiple sources that important industrial and logistics providers feel gagged by these NDAs in telling the public the reality/ correcting erroneous optimistic political claims re Brexit border preparedness. Cant think of a precedent.

Government said in response to our story that this was standard industry practice, industry said that would be the case for government contractors, but they aren’t, they’re industry bodies consulting on hugely important political decisions, blocked from saying what they think

A story on how if there is a public interest argument that validates the breaking of a NDA, RIGHT NOW, is kind of important.

It might encourage someone who is covered by this particular story - or a similar one - to go to the press claiming its in the public interest for us all to know.

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RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:16

FWIW, its interesting that a PRO-BREXIT newspaper is chosing to go down the route of questioning the legitimacy of NDAs RIGHT NOW.

Couldn't this story have waited a month or two? Why is it so important to do it NOW?

They have been working on the story for months. Its not new.

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MyBrexitIsIll · 24/10/2018 11:17

I agree RBT it’s a HUGE issue.
And I’m Shock at the number of NDA that the government has used too.
I know they will say it’s all about protecting information so they have the upper hand in negociations. I believe it’s more about avoiding people to actually KNOW the risks that are taken and try and keep everyone quiet. Much easier to do whatever you want when no one knows what you are trying to achieve....

LolaOchLotta · 24/10/2018 11:18

RTB Thanks that's a very good explanation. FWIW, the name is being suggested on Twitter by means of the usual 'rhymes with' 'fill in the blank' riddles.

MyBrexitIsIll Thanks we are in a similar situation, with slightly younger dc. It's strange isn't it the being treated 'lesser than' for speaking with an accent. My friends back 'home' can absolutely not imagine that a) it happens to and b) how that can affect your happiness and self worth.

LolaOchLotta · 24/10/2018 11:19

RedToothBrush maybe the Telegraph are pro Brexit and also pro deal?

DGRossetti · 24/10/2018 11:21

It's been a holy grail of some to devise a system where citizens can give up their fundamental rights. The "voluntary" opting out from working time regulations being a relatively anodyne thin-end of a wedge that leads to people becoming indentured servants.

Again

Just imagine what rights you could sign away, if the law can be corrupted to allow it ? This is why the US baked the phrase "inalienable rights" into their declaration of independence. Rights that cannot be traded or trumped.

There was a lively discussion of student loads upthread. What was missing was the plan to convert them into bonds, so that the lucky holder has to work "at will" in order to pay them off. Or not, as the case may be. Leading to a new "bond market" where people are bought, sold and loaned, as companies trade their human assets. Megacorp inc. needs a few geologists ? Just log onto "BondExchange" and see how many indentured geologists you can source. Medical specialists, with their eye-watering need for complex and costly education ? Get yourself down to "Bonds-R-Us" where you can browse though a list from anaesthetists to zygotic specialists.

We all know it's what's coming. Only no ones listening.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:22

I have to say, that now the FT has reported what they have, the public interest on those NDA is stronger. It shows how long the government have been sitting on this, and have know. If the Cabinet are now claiming to be shocked and saying that No Deal is better than a bad deal EVEN NOW, its laughable.

It shows the level of what they are prepared to do and how much they are prepared to ignore.

Say ANYONE dies due to food shortages or medical shortages, then you might want to reflect on this:

Gross negligence manslaughter is a form of involuntary manslaughter where the defendant is ostensibly acting lawfully. Involuntary manslaughter may arise where the defendant has caused death but neither intended to cause death nor intended to cause serious bodily harm and thus lacks the mens rea of murder. Whereas constructive manslaughter exists where the defendant commits an unlawful act which results in death, gross negligence manslaughter is not dependant on demonstrating an unlawful act has been committed. Gross negligence manslaughter can be said to apply where the defendant commits a lawful act in such a way as to render the actions criminal. Gross negligence manslaughter also differs from constructive manslaughter in that it can be committed by omission.

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DGRossetti · 24/10/2018 11:24

FWIW, its interesting that a PRO-BREXIT newspaper is chosing to go down the route of questioning the legitimacy of NDAs RIGHT NOW.

Pastor Niemöller moment ?

DGRossetti · 24/10/2018 11:25

Gross negligence manslaughter can be said to apply where the defendant commits a lawful act in such a way as to render the actions criminal. Gross negligence manslaughter also differs from constructive manslaughter in that it can be committed by omission.

Forgetting to leave a code to open a door, for example ?

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2018 11:28

It is a wise plan for those students who can, to emigrate as soon as they qualify
Nothing is foolproof, but that is the best way of avoiding the crippling debt
I'd love to know the figures on how many have gone that route

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:29

Well Daily Mail editorial the other day about traitors was interesting. Dacre is STILL the editor until the 1st November.

At some point the press need to wake up and realise that their entire existance is at threat if they believe in any way in journalism.

The Trump and Khashoggi stories must also be concerning to them.

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PineappleSunrise · 24/10/2018 11:31

I'm in the same position as you, Lola and "MyBrexit*, though my home country is non-EU. My DH is British and seems to have a complete cognitive fail when it comes to processing what's going on and then working out what WE can/should do. It's like his brain literally crashes, and he can only get it going again by thinking about things on his domestic do-to list. (Must go mow the lawn, etc...) I know from reading these threads for a the past two years that we're not the only couple with this dynamic.

Really puts the "men are risk takers, women are risk adverse" stereotype in a whole new light. I'd never really realised that "risk takers" meant "ignoring danger until it's too late and you have no choice but to deal with it head-on," as opposed to being the kind of person who goes out proactively looking for risky but rewarding actions.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:32

Oh and the separate VAT for NI thing.

Just how much do the DUP want to protect their law on gay marriage and abortion?

PoliticsHome @politicshome
Pressure on Theresa May as Tory MPs back fresh bid to overturn abortion ban in Northern Ireland

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/uk-regions/northern-ireland/news/99305/pressure-theresa-may-tory-mps-back-fresh-bid-overturn
Pressure on Theresa May as Tory MPs back fresh bid to overturn abortion ban in Northern Ireland

This is REALLY smart and wise timing.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2018 11:32

In practice, how many politicians in a democracy even have been charged, let alone convicted,
for deaths caused unintentionally by their incompetence or even callous disregard ?

e.g. the deaths of those whose benefits have been withdrawn - a couple of cases of diatetics dying due to no food that I can think of

No chance of even bringing charges, imo

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:32

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
Sir Jeremy Heywood stepping down as Cabinet Secretary to concentrate on recovery from ill health

This is bad. Isn't it?

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RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:33

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
Sir Mark Sedwill, acting Cabinet Secretary, takes over as permanent Cabinet Secretary at critical juncture in Brexit negotiations and preparedness

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bellinisurge · 24/10/2018 11:35

TM should be saying to the DUP - you want us to fight for the same set up for NI and rUK? Allow right to choose and equal marriage. Like the rest of the UK.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:37

I'd normally agree Big Choc.

But this isn't normal.

Would you still beleive that if we had a Momentum Government in power?

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RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:40

There is also misconduct in public office; which has a difficult history because its definition is so loose.

The crime of misconduct, is defined as involving two principles:
…first, that a man accepting an office of trust concerning the public, especially if attended with profit, is answerable criminally to the King for misbehaviour in his office; this is true, by whomever and in whatever way the officer is appointed… Secondly, where there is a breach of trust, fraud or imposition, in a matter concerning the public, though as between individuals it would be actionable, yet as between the King and the subject it is indictable. That such should be the rule is essential to the existence of the country.

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RedToothBrush · 24/10/2018 11:41

Catherine De Vries @CatherineDVries
Forget Brexit for a bit, Italy is place to watch.

If Rome refuses to budge on budget & Commission might consider opening an "excessive deficit procedure" against Italian government,

an untended consequence might be more support for national government among Italian public.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2018 11:42

red The Telegraph would be acting like this too if the wealthy person concerned was on the "left", a donor say, (that could be anyone not a hard Brexiter)
or any businessman who was about to speak out,
to discredit them in advance, whether the allegation is true or maybe not even MeToo, just embarassing, like prostitutes, male or female.

So don't get excited that they are supporting freedom of Information
They may be ; they may not - could just be the start of serious smear time