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Brexit

Westministenders: A Change of Mood

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2018 17:57

A day after 700,000 people came from all over the country to march on the streets of the Capital to protest and say there needs to be another vote on what next.

Has it changed anything?

Well the mood is changing.

Former leavers are starting to have doubts. Not necessarily about leaving but certainly about how its been handled. Some have ridicilous ideas on how it should be done which are not grounded in any sort of reality. But others are starting to realise that a lot of what Remainers said, at least has some truth, in terms of the complexity and practical problems of leaving.

The EU who previoiusly have been exasperated but accomodating are starting to baton down the hatches and move to a no deal position. The EU summit in November will now no longer include the UK because progress has not been made, although we have been told this is changeable if we have a change of heart. At the summit they will talk about No Deal planning. There has been talk that the final deadline for the UK is 13th December, but there are also some saying this is optimistic and in reality its the middle of November in political terms because this is when EU countries will start committing large amounts of money to No Deal. At this point, it becomes much more difficult for leaders to justify to their own population 'wasting' money on no deal measures.

Back in the UK, the penny is starting to drop. Peston has talked about just how far away we really are from a deal. He's the first main stream journalist to say it outloud. Everyone else is still maintaining we will get a deal, when May just does not have the power in her own party to manage it. She is now reaching out to Labour to help her get a deal as its her only option left open to her now.

May has to get the budget through parliament before the EU summit - on the 1st November - and the DUP are already threatening to vote against it as leverage to get their own way on Brexit.

Tory MP Johnny Mercer is so fed up of it all, that he's come out saying that that he wouldn't vote Tory now, and its all a "complete shit show".

This apparently hasn't gone down too well with other Tories as they feel it means that its more likely to provoke a leadership challenge sooner rather than later. It has been reported that May has been effectively been put on notice and she 72 hours to sort it out. She has been called to a 1922 Committee Meeting on Wednesday to answer to backbenchers.

Up until now, its been thought that the 48 letters wouldn't be sent to Graham Brady because she would win a no confidence vote. Its now being reported that there is a creeping fear that the party would end up with a situation like Labour where they were unable to get rid of Corbyn, and if a leadership challenge was launched they would need to just get rid of her now.

Quick revision:

  1. To trigger a confidence vote 48 letters (15% of Tory MPs) need to be sent to Graham Brady, the chair of the 1922 Committee.
  2. There is then a vote, and the leader needs 156 MPs (50.1%) of the vote to win or they face a leadership election.
  3. If there is no confidence vote, another one can't be called for twelve months.

There has been talk of David Davis as an interim leader, which isn't true; its just the start of another round of positioning as Tories smell the blood of a wounded leader. Johnson is also circling and isn't impressed at David Davis seemingly throwing his hat in the ring, despite previously he would just retire.

Triggering a no confidence vote, just before the EU summit around the time of the budget could be just about the worst timing possible if thats the case...

... it would leave British politics in complete chaos and the EU will have effectively run out of time and will have to commit themselves to No Deal anyway.

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ShinyElena · 23/10/2018 14:44

I would like to think that we all, as a society, benefit from better quality and more wide ranging higher education (e.g. more doctors, engineers, better informed public debate, etc.).

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2018 14:45

BigChoc, I'm willing to take ANYTHING positive that sounds remotely like a deal at this point, if I'm honest. I will clutch my straws, because the alternative is worse.

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DGRossetti · 23/10/2018 14:47

What happens if you piss off abroad and never return once you've graduated ?

WorriedMutha · 23/10/2018 14:52

Genuinely confused by the Tony Connelly piece. So much being put off until after the WA that it could be seen as a blind Brexit. Also, the EU should nail us why they've still got May. If the Tories elect a headbanger, they will start to unravel everything.

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2018 14:54

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/news/99283/autistic-mp-jared-omara-%E2%80%98cant-attend-pmqs-because-aggression-and
Autistic MP Jared O'Mara ‘can’t attend PMQs because of aggression and shouting’
An autistic MP has said that high levels of 'heckling and aggression' at Prime Minister's Questions have made it impossible for him to attend.

I despair.

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ShinyElena · 23/10/2018 15:02

DGR That is literally what I have done. I would hope that my feeble attempts at repaying Hungarian society for educating me would be replicated by others.
Also you have to accept that modern academia and industry require travel and living abroad.

Theworldisfullofgs · 23/10/2018 15:05

Just wondered if you were aware that the chair of the lack lustre remain campaign, was also the founding member of the Business for Britain campaign in 2013, which was a eurosceptic campaign group

Motheroffourdragons · 23/10/2018 15:08

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2018 15:29

This looks like it might be promising

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest it's already hit the buffers. The word "Brexit" disappears from the BBC front page whenever there's bad news about Brexit.

Hazardswan · 23/10/2018 15:43

I placed my first proper bet Grin May to be the next cabinet min out by the end of the year. If that happens whatever chaos happens I won't care because I'll have won 50 quid lol.

Not sure why Jared O'Mara is still an MP considering he's sexist and homophobic. Mind you that probably makes him qualified given the current climate.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2018 15:44

Mother Getting 70% of loans repaid is a hell of a lot cheaper than writing them off.
70% of £105 bn is £73.5 bn, well over double the entire annual defence budget !

DG Most countries will not normally allow cIvil debt from other countries to be pursued

I don't know if such debt is recoverable within the EU, but it certainly isn't for anyone who moves themselves - and their assets - to the USA, the Middle East, Asia, Africa etc
I don't know about Oz, NZ, Canada but probably not there either

As soon as grants were scrapped and the first loans were announced, under Blair, I said it was an invitation to an overseas braindrain.
I was furious, because I knew it would put off many poor kids from attending
AND because it was obvious that the increase in degrees would make degrees mandatory in many more jobs
Double whammy

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2018 16:05

Not sure why Jared O'Mara is still an MP considering he's sexist and homophobic.

Cos you can't sack an MP for being worse than useless.

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GD12 · 23/10/2018 16:07

We all knew this but it's insane non the less...

twitter.com/LiamByrneMP/status/1054734735233220608?s=19

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2018 16:11

Bruno Waterfield @BrunoBrussels
Brexit talks next week will be overshadowed by EU fears that the government might be reneging on previous commitments to avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland.
Negotiations will formally begin again as early as next Tuesday or Wednesday after the budget.

Talks will be repeat of the “tunnel” earlier this month with the aim of getting something a deal over the line after mid-November. There is still cautious optimism in Brussels but some concern UK is moving back on previous agreements on Ireland.

EU officials and diplomats are carefully scrutinising PM's speech yesterday. Everyone is in the dark. “Only Olly Robbins, her chief negotiator, the PM and a tiny circle know what is going on and what the plan is,” said one source.

There are four main points or “steps” set out in May’s statement yesterday.

“First, we must make the commitment to a temporary UK-EU joint customs territory legally binding, so the Northern Ireland only proposal is no longer needed,” she told MPs.

This is about a “legally watertight” commitment or cross reference in the withdrawal agreement to the future relationship. it might be merely be a note that with a deal, probably including a customs union, the EU’s controversial Northern Ireland backstop “is no longer needed”.

There are questions on the EU side. Does this mean the current EU version of the backstop is deleted? Or does “not needed” mean elements of Northern NI specific text stays but is overwritten by UK-wide arrangements? Or is it all redrafted and woven into a new UK-wide backstop?

Government fears that unless withdrawal agreement commits EU to finding a UK-wide customs arrangement then it will be taken to court by Brexiters and it will lose. EU is ready to help by deleting a reference in draft withdrawal treaty to a separate customs territory for NI

New drafts will incorporate government proposals on “temporary”, although open ended, arrangements. The compromise would mean that existing EU backstop would be “overwritten” receding into the background, expressed in highly technical references to EU legislation, of a new draft.

“We are waiting to see what Mrs May meant next week,” said a source close to talks. "It is quite possible that where we end up will allow her to claim victory."

“The second step, is to create an option to extend the Implementation Period as an alternative to the backstop,” she told MPs.

“if at the end of 2020 future relationship was not quite ready - proposal is that the UK would be able to make a sovereign choice between UK-wide customs backstop or a short extension … would mean only one set of changes for businesses - at point we move to future relationship.”

This is the possibility of using an extension to the transition, at some point after the end of 2020, to negotiate a “temporary” customs union to avoid a hard border in Ireland.

That extension, as she notes, would then only mean one more set of changes for business because the UK-wide “temporary customs arrangement” would be “seamless” with a future relationship.

This raises question of whether May is moving towards a permanent customs union as part of a future trade deal. German officials last week signalled “we will have a new customs union between the EU and the UK. It will be much like the customs union between the EU and Turkey.”

[May’s “fourth step” in the statement is is for “the government to deliver the commitment we have made to ensure full continued access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the UK internal market”...

This implies that she is still looking for regulatory alignment with the single market, on goods, alongside a possible customs union]

“Third step, Mr Speaker, is to ensure that were we to need either of these insurance policies – whether the backstop or a short extension to the Implementation Period – we could not be kept in either arrangement indefinitely,” she told MPs.

This is seen by the EU side as a bit vague. Presumably, they think it is a mechanism covered by a "joint committee" disputes structure already in the withdrawal agreement involving both sides in decisions.

“The decision procedure in the joint committee is not clear as this has not been agreed yet,” said a senior EU diplomat.

Britain could always insist on trade sovereignty, leaving any backstop or transition extension, under the withdrawal agreement but that would mean consequences.

An existing “punishment clause” sets out measures that EU could take against Britain. This could be a “lump sum penalty” fine or suspension of access to EU markets possibly meaning the imposition of tariffs or loss of aviation rights.

That was less a "thread" than a whole tapestry

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RedToothBrush · 23/10/2018 16:15

twitter.com/grumpypostie/status/1054431727148523521
Well this looks a car crash

Eurosceptics leading the Remain campaign....

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RedToothBrush · 23/10/2018 16:23

Its amazing to see MPs ONLY JUST working out what No Deal means.

Its almost as if they didn't do their job in working out what a50 could mean.

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Peregrina · 23/10/2018 16:23

So it's no wonder they couldn't make a convincing case!

Motheroffourdragons · 23/10/2018 16:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

woman11017 · 23/10/2018 16:30

Student loans do not work well
They're splendid for discouraging non rich students from getting degrees though.
Job done.Smile

Is the Stuart Rose thing that surprising? Cameron ran a conservative party campaign for a federalist economic and political union.
Like having Marks and Sparks promote the ECHR, oh wait a minute.......

Hazardswan · 23/10/2018 16:31

Just saw this from comms

Don't stockpile meds.....But this advice might change and you will be personally sticking meds in January.

Y'know 3 months before brexit and a sudden rush of patients stockpiling, that won't create a supply and demand issue I'm sure Hmm

Westministenders: A Change of Mood
Hazardswan · 23/10/2018 16:32

Stockpiling* auto correct while cooking fail..

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2018 16:37

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
I'm told the PM will now appear in front of 1922 Committee tomorrow night. This will be quite a moment.

I thought this was news on Sunday, not now.

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woman11017 · 23/10/2018 16:38

Anyone seen anything about the King of Netherlands' visit today?
I understand he waved to the Pro EU protest outside HOC. Smile

@Andrew_Adonis
My advice to civil servants: have nothing to do with Brexit if you have choice of work. If you are a senior official, don’t do anything ethically dodgy & be careful that ministerial instructions don’t cross this line. There will probably be a public enquiry so be very careful

The problems between the civil service and the executive is a wee bit worrying.

DGRossetti · 23/10/2018 16:39

Student loans do not work well, from a financial perspective for either the borrower or the government.

They were never intended to. They do however work well for academic institutions and their investors.

Same way privatising the utilities was merely a means to allowing private investors to get their snouts in the trough.

Rinse and repeat.

woman11017 · 23/10/2018 16:47

I thought this was news on Sunday, not now
They'll need a lot of this sort of circus stuff to fill the time between now and the January nod through. Bet she does more dancey stuff and her neck chains get more surreal.

Oh look this is a surprise. Not.

@JohnJCrace
Government just voting against @DianaJohnsonMP 10 minute rule bill to bring abortion in NI in line with rest of UK. How dare they break up the Union

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