Westministenders: Talks Walk Out?

[RedToothBrush]

We are now on the countdown to whether we get a backstop Withdrawal Deal. May is hoping to get the EU to backdown on this saying that we will stay in the customs union until a deal is agreed on NI. That would mean come 29th March, we'd have no transistion period, but we'd still have a hard border in NI because we were out of the single market. And if the EU don't agree to it we are into the chances of accidental Brexit being sky high. The only way out would be revoking a50. May has hinted that if Tory MPs don't give her support we could end up with no brexit at all - whether she means revoking a50 or Beano isn't clear.

So onward to 18th October...

This thread is a life-saver for lonesome Remainers like me (no one I know or come across in RL talks about Brexit). But I get sick of the English/England is shit attitude from most of the posters here. Obviously millions of English voted to remain and over a million Scots voted to leave. It wasn't just the hardy few on here who wanted to stay.

David Trimble doesn't think there will be a return to the Troubles. God I hope he's right.

I'm not impressed with the way the EU has handled negotiations at all. And Labour - well words fail me.

I believe the majority of vets in abattoirs and working in the less cuddly parts of vet medicine are from the EU, so not surprised if the person handling this for DExEU has resigned.
It's so hard to get into vet school in this country, harder than medicine. There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't have been training up our own vets for decades. I've had a number of students with very good grades not get places to study vet medicine because of the lack of places (same goes for medicine and nursing).
I've seen some on these boards use this as a reason why Brexit will be a good thing "we can train our own doctors". We always could but we chose not to you effing idiot numpty. (Sorry but even the thought of this makes me cross.)

in none of the UK's nations are a majority of taxpayers happy to see their taxes spent in other parts of the UK.

Right, the Uk is no longer a functioning country

Tbf this is a sentiment I have encountered for a very long time. I remember all the discussion about it was unacceptable for Scottish MP to sit in Westminster and vote on ‘english’ matters etc.... as well as at the time, the anger that ‘so much money’ was sent ‘there’
That feeling was also there during the referendum for the Scottish independence. But labelled as ‘how can they expect to be able to live as an independent country when we sent so much money towards to them 😡😡’

But that sentiment has been made worse by the 10 years of austerity. This has imo encouraged a very individualist approach to any problem. I ca;see that in the answers on MN. Compare to 10~15 years ago, there is a hell of a lot more of ‘you have to be able to look after yourself wo needing any help’ answers whether the help is benefits, help from parents etc etc (see comments for sample about the fact people shouldn't have had children if they can’t afford it when people are saying they are struggling to pay for school uniform or school dinners).
It wasnot like this before :(:(

It has been like this a long time but overall austerity has made it far more noticeable, the fact that all are taxed to a similar degree but the infrastructure that is maintained/improved by the tax take is so unevenly distributed.
If memory serves, London and parts of the South east receive around 5 times the investment in transport, roads, internet and so on, compared to many parts of the North and presumably west.
If the ratio was nearer 3:1 it would represent a massive boost to the poorer areas.
Before the crash of 2008 austerity was not so severe so the 'deprived' areas were scraping along, (not good or right of course) but now are going under.

I completely agree with your post of 8.15, born.
Further to the idea of not training enough professionals in the UK, doesn’t anyone think it’s immoral to encourage foreign doctors/nurses/vets to come and live here? When those people have been expensively trained in their own countries, and may be sorely needed there? Particularly developing countries. (There’s probably research in those places about how they train thousands of medical staff a year, and large numbers of them promptly leave for other shores...)

NI group claims rights 'watered down' in Brexit process

Experts suggest that equality rights in Northern Ireland, as well as protections afforded by the European Convention on Human Rights and the EU's Charter of Fundamental Rights, could all be weakened as EU law is gradually replaced by British law

The case lodged with the EU Ombudsman has been brought by the Committee on the Administration of Justice, a Northern Ireland-based human rights organisation, as well as three individuals, including two academics

As the Taoiseach made clear last week, after Northern Ireland leaves the European Union, everyone in Northern Ireland will still have the right to be an EU citizen

The Irish Government is determined to ensure that the Withdrawal and Future Relationship Agreements protect citizens' rights, both the rights of EU citizens living in the UK, and particularly EU citizens in Northern Ireland

That is also why Ireland wants to ensure that the Common Travel Area is retained, allowing Irish and British citizens to travel freely between Britain and Ireland to live, work, study, ac

Although SF have been making the running in the current Housing crisis actions in the south, I'm wondering how, if at all, that will affect support too for NI.

www.rte.ie/news/2018/1009/1001863-ni_brexit_rights/

Hurricane re the EU:

They warned from the beginning that the UK cannot keep all the bits it likes when it Brexits
Under EU and international law, there were only ever the options on Barniers slide and he showed how May's red lines narrowed options down to Canada

Under WTO / WCO rules, they have no choice about sticking to their rules about the 4 pillars;
Otherwise they would have to basically rewrite 80,000 pages of treaties that have built up over the last 60+ years and dismantle the SIngle Market on which their prospreity depends

re the NI border:
The EU are just supporting their member, the RoI, against the country that's leaving.

As math posted, the RoI voted to change their constitution fundamentally, a part of the GFA and almost all their voters are against letting the UK abandon some of what they agreed to, because of Brexit

The UK govt assumed they'd be able to bully the RoI into agreement - May or Davies said before something like it's "not a big important country like the UK"

If the EU rolled over the RoI just to gain trade, then it would fall apart, because most members are little countries

Even apart from morality, the RoI - like any other EU member - can veto any new trade deal, so it would be pointless negotiating something they oppose
They have a lot of sympathy on the border, so probably 25 other members would veto too.

Noone says England is shit

The big problem is that those who voted Leave for English nationalist reasons want the hardest, most destructive Brexit - and don't care about the damage to the other 3 Uk nations
These are mostly very rightwing Tory voters

The govt actions are dominated not just by the DUP, but by a core part of their own vote
So English Nationalism threatens the UK

I absolutely don't think England is shit. Quite the opposite. However, unthinking English and Welsh voters gave us Leave. That is stupid because it risks GFA. Which is one of the things we can ALL be proud of.

It's very unpatriotic to try to force actions that would savage the economy, make most ordinary people worse off
and turbocharge movements for Scottish independence and Irish unity

We have to hope for the least damaging Brexit, because the EU would probably refuse a last-minute Remain that drags back an angry, divided country that is likely to be far more disruptive than ever before

If memory serves, London and parts of the South east receive around 5 times the investment in transport, roads, internet and so on, compared to many parts of the North and presumably west

This is so true (Northerner here). The traffic in the north west is shocking. The railways are good if you want to go to London (it will cost a fortune though). Elsewhere the railways are dreadful.

Yes the housing is cheaper but there’s not the same career opportunities. The north is crying out for investment.

bigchoc
Just catching up on the thread. I am genuinely appalled at the level of division revealed by the Guardian poll you shared yesterday. I'm starting to think dammed if we do & damned if we don't. Brexit is about to pull the country apart but is cancelling it not a potential trigger for huge unrest too? That's been the leavers' threat for a while but it worry it should be taken seriously.

Almost all the serious papers, including foreign ones, take a similar line, so I really hope this is accurate.

The EU are clearly pushing the optimistic mood music to encourage a deal, but they wouldn't do that without strong indications from the UK side

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/08/eu-to-offer-anywhere-checks-in-bid-to-break-irish-border-deadlock

Downing Street has all but accepted that the whole of the UK will stay in a customs union for an “indefinite period” after Brexit to avoid a hard border on the island of Irelandd*.

Under the so-called backstop solution, the government is also ready to accept there may be regulatory divergence between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK after Brexit if that is acceptable to Stormont.
...
But on Monday Robbins warned the EU’s negotiating team, led by Michel Barnier’s deputy, Sabine Weyand, that this would only be possible if Brussels gave something in the political declaration in return.

< that should be possible - the main problem is that the UK still can't decide what kind of future trade deal it want; hence the difficulty of promising this in the WA ! >

BrexitUncorn yep the north is crying out for investments.
Investments that EU DID do, in the grounds it’s one of the most deprived areas in the EU.....

I remember arriving in the U.K. 20 years ago and been so surprised at the ‘anger’ of people in the North east towards the ‘South’ and the government that was always forgetting them.
I actually didn’t quite believe it (totally unthinkable where I’m coming from) at the time. But boy, do they always ‘forget’ (Not to day look down) the north of the country.... :(:(

I am genuinely appalled at the level of division revealed

Like with the GC thingy, I reckon they're still overplaying their card.

Most people IRL, don't care/understand brexit and do want things to continue as normal and fairer than normal.

The SM division is funded, targetted and is effective to a certain point. Likewise the BBC and other compromised media outlets.

Less than 20% of people are on twitter. Less than 20% of people are far right nutcases.

Normality and more fairness, and no poor souls dying on the streets is what most people want, I reckon.
And a roof and security for posters like Doctor Two

As the Taoiseach made clear last week, after Northern Ireland leaves the European Union, everyone in Northern Ireland will still have the right to be an EU citizen

One of the elephants in the room has always been the "danger" that after Brexit, there will essentially be 2 classes of citizens in the UK. Those that are protected by the ECJ (EU citizens, like RoI citizens) and those that aren't (UK citizens). It is politically inconceivable that a citizen of the RoI has more rights than a UK citizen. However, it's hard to see how that can be avoided. Especially when added to the fact that being an EU citizen - even now - is starting to look like a better deal than not. At least based on some recruiters I've dealt with.

Downing Street has all but accepted that the whole of the UK will stay in a customs union for an “indefinite period”

Ok so as we thought, no great independent trade deals but still leaving the single market?

Just for the sake of nostalgia..David Davis (remember him) said

" Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU … The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated"
David Davis 14 July 2016

But on Monday Robbins warned the EU’s negotiating team, led by Michel Barnier’s deputy, Sabine Weyand, that this would only be possible if Brussels gave something in the political declaration in return.

Why should they ?

Brexit is about to pull the country apart but is cancelling it not a potential trigger for huge unrest too? That's been the leavers' threat for a while but it worry it should be taken seriously.

I think the answer to that, is "It all depends." If a Government got in which really intended to tackle austerity, and made good promises to invest in the north and south west, then no, I don't think there would be unrest. Few people were bothered about the EU before, until Farage whipped things up. If you go to the north and talk about industrial areas laid waste, it is usually Thatcher who is blamed, not the EU. Apart from that silly Tory girl with the Boris Johnson tattoo, who is blaming the EU for not stopping the dumping steel, and causing their steelworks to close. (I know that's probably a biased view, but he is against the EU anti dumping measures.)

We Remainers have got thousands out on the streets to protest - Farage and Co haven't been able to get anywhere near the same numbers.

2 classes of citizens in the UK
Loss of travel rights, human rights and legal protections will be no clearer than being across the water from british citizens who have them.

Interesting watching BBC/Radio Northern Ireland and especially RTE in ROI. Still is. Although difficult to locate BBC NI on BBC thingy now.

the government that was always forgetting them [the north].

This has been going on for a long long time. DF was living in Hull during the war. Bombing raids in London would make the news, whereas he said, they were bombed night after night. The planes went over, missed their target, saw Hull lit up by the Humber Estuary and wham, dumped their load. It never made the news, he said.

I wondered what this Bellingcat website that is given so much credence by the MSM in its uncovering of the identities of the Scripal poisoners. This is its founder, Eliot Higgins:
Higgins is a senior fellow in the Digital Forensic Research Lab (since 2016[22]) and Future Europe Initiative, projects run by the Atlantic Council, a leading US geopolitical strategy think-tank based in Washington, D.C.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

" Within two years,....... David Davis 14 July 2016"

Times up. Why haven't we got the details of what to expect then? The Leavers ought to be telling us what they are.

Aha. born I was wondering why that was suddenly a reliable source.

Brexit is about to pull the country apart but is cancelling it not a potential trigger for huge unrest too? That's been the leavers' threat for a while but it worry it should be taken seriously

We can only go on our individual experiences but i live in a strong Leave area, Cornwall, these folk are business owners, self employed, builders, farm workers, IT technicians, retired, unemployed, even a surgeon!! .... they are not revolutionaries and equally i don't believe the large number of people who voted for the first time 2016 are going to rip up the streets of London either.

Few ever talk about Brexit, occasionally you might get a "it wont happen" or "this lot couldn't organise a piss up in a...etc" but thats it, there is no Wat Tyler about to launch a peoples revolt.

Its this apathy that is allowing the Gov to act in a very selfish way ie stay in power regardless.

Liverpool, Manchester and many other Northern cities have been (in parts) incredibly wealthy in the past. Unfortunately those who were very rich then decided that playing money markets was 'easier' than maintaining the industries that had made their wealth, which of course dwindled when manufacturing went overseas. Of course in general 'people' and where they lived was just a means to an end and 'expendable', either by the wealthy industrialists or by the government, allowing industry to decline rather than finding a way to make them responsible. Of course nuance is needed but the Thatcher era of decimating the coalfields etc was seen as a 'us against them' exercise, whereas forcing the owners to modernise and work constructively to improve the lives of all would have been far better for the country. Had there been regulation that FORCED mine owners to put the land back to 'green pastures' that it had been before being dug up, rather than just walking away from the machinery and the people.Pie in the sky I know but what the heck.