Brits in Europe - deal or no deal?

[EthelThePiratesDaughter]

This is a thread for British Mumsnetters living in another EU country to talk about what happens after next March if there is a deal or if there isn't.

I know that many things are unknown at this stage but I thought it could be a useful place for us to share whatever information we have and offer advice or support.

It would be nice if people could share a little bit of (non outy) information about themselves.

I'm in my early 30s, living in France since 2017, married to a French man and working locally. I plan to apply for French citizenship but won't be eligible until 2022.

My understanding at the moment is that if a deal is done it will include something on citizens' rights attempting to preserve the rights of people who have exercised their treaty rights before the withdrawal date. I guess this would include the right to stay living where we are at the moment but possibly not the right to move to another EU country. (I'm not worried about that part as my husband is French, so if we wanted to move to another EU country I could ironically find myself having more rights than I do in France, as per the Surinder Singh case.) What about short term travelling? Is it possible to have the right to live in one member state due to grandfathered treaty rights, but need a Schengen visa to go on holiday in another? Anyone know?

In the event of no deal I have literally no clue what happens. Do we just become illegal immigrants overnight?

Hi Ethel
You will probably have gathered I am also in France but in a very precarious position at present. Having not been here long my paperwork is not yet in order but I am slowly working on it.
Self employed especially if I stop messing about on MN!
Would your husband like to 'adopt an OAP'? I have my own teeth and very practical around the house!

We are retired, have lived in France for thirteen years and have Titres de Séjour Permanent.
This group and its website are the best source of up to date information in my opinion.
www.remaininfrance.org/

Hi LeClerc. What paperwork are you doing at the moment?

missclimpson, Are you planning to apply for citizenship?

I am in Portugal. I am self-employed and work in several European countries and am worried about my continuing ability to do this post-Brexit. I am not yet eligible for citizenship but I'm relaxed about residency. I am also concerned about savings and assets in the UK and what to do about them.

Not sure about citizenship Ethel. I absolutely would in your shoes, but I think at our age if our rights are assured even as third country residents, it is probably fair to let younger people go first. As far as I can see we meet all the criteria for fixed residence here and are unlikely to want to move countries. Our son lives in Spain with our Spanish DiL and he is holding off applying for citizenship as Spain does not allow dual nationality. He may have to go for it to continue to be allowed to work though.

If you're eligible for it then I would go for it. It's not as if there's a quota.

No I know and one of our friends got it at 70+. It's partly because the titre de séjour process was so expensive (translations etc), time consuming and stressful that we felt we needed a rest before tackling the next bit. 😊

That's understandable. I find all the French bureaucracy such a headache. Don't have a titre de séjour yet and I need to look into exchanging my driving licence. (Which probably means I won't be able to drive my parents' cars as a named driver any more, which will be a massive pain.)

If you think French bureaucracy is bad you ain’t seen nothing yet. I give you Italian bureaucracy. I have permanent residency (automatically conferred in 2007) and an ID card, and have applied for citizenship. I’m not particularly worried about staying here, as a parent of an Italian child I have residency rights in that alone, but I am thoroughly pissed off at not having FOM from next year. My job relies on me travelling to other EU countries freely and adding a visa in the mix might or might not be a pain, depending on cost and validity how much the British gov piss everyone off

A friend of mine is in a total pickle, however. She’s not yet eligible for citizenship as has only been resident a short while. Her current job has become horrendous and she is looking for another at the same level (hers is the main salary), but every single job she has applied for requires EU citizenship and she’s found she’s not even getting an interview.

I'm also in Portugal - I have my permanent residency (have been here 11 years) and I work from home, teaching people communication and leadership skills by interacting with horses. Brexit won't affect me one way or the other but I fervently hope it doesn't happen as I think it's a huge backward step.

I'm in Sweden. I have a politician friend who thinks that in the event of no deal the EU 27 will agree something between themselves on how to deal with us.

That said DH applied for citizenship straight after the referendum result but hasn't heard anything yet. Apparently the expected waiting time for processing is 3 years at the earliest. Thankfully I already have duel citizenship by birth (Irish) so they can't chuck us out.

I worry about retired folk in Spain as many of them (I would say a majority, at least in my experience) never register as residents. My cousin is a social worker, works for a Council in one of the Costas. and these elderly expats only register once they realise it is the only way to have access to certain social services such as carers or subsidised home help. Some of them, as my parents neighbours at their holiday home, have been living in Spain for 20+ years but come to the UK frequently and, up to this last summer, did not see the point in registering. They said they did not want to pay taxes in Spain (btw, they wouldn't have had to as they are already paying property tax and their pension income is already taxed) but this is / was the mindset so many of them could experience issues when trying to prove they were resident in Spain for the 5 years needed for PR.

I suppose the Spanish authorities would actively have to pursue them though? I think not registering is completely wrong and utterly bonkers, but I do wonder if all governments would want the hassle of rounding people up in the short term. Do you think the Spanish would do that LaBruja. In France you don't have to formally register (though it is considered correct to inform the local Mairie) but I think you would soon be in trouble if you tried to register for health cover and weren't in the tax system and living "in a regular fashion".

I have no idea what they will do... I guess they will end accepting payment of IBI (Council Tax) and utility bills as proof of residency. I was just commenting on this because have never understood why is it that so many of them never register, when in Spain it is really easy, it is not that the authorities ask for hundreds of documents and bills... I think it is just register in the town hall, pay the property taxes and submit a IRPF (resident tax return) instead of a IRNR (non-resident tax return). Can be wrong! Tbh, the rules are the same, but different countries apply them in a different, let's call it, fashion. I think very few retired / SAHP / etc. will get PR in Spain (and in many other EU countries) if the rules were applied as they are in the UK (private health insurance apart from EHIC, documentary proof, clock being reset...).

A lot will depend on if there is agreement to continue the S1 agreement for health care. If the health care of pensioners continues to be paid by the UK government then I think that would go a long way. I don't know, but I suspect Spain has always had quite a lot of second home owners who have a UK address, but spend more time in Spain than tax rules allow. It is hard to know for certain though. People see the "expats" on telly programmes running hare-brained businesses and failing to learn the language and I am sure there are plenty of them, but people never see those of us who live in our communities and speak the language, because we totally avoid the expat scene. I found out about an English person in the next tiny village the other day. We have both lived here for years and didn't know about each other.

I was just commenting on this because have never understood why is it that so many of them never register, when in Spain it is really easy,

I hate to say it, but it's "because we're British". My cousin has asked the same question where she lives, and that's the answer she got.

Like Melassa I am in Italy, married to an Italian. I have applied for Italian citizenship but, even presuming they accept me, the waiting times are very long. I have been here a long time and have worked here since graduating many years ago so I am not too worried about pension rights etc. I am extremely angry about the damage Brexit is doing though!

Also in Italy, married to an Italian, and am pregnant so will soon be mother to an Italian child too. I can't apply for citizenship yet, I will be eligible as an EU citizen to apply in January but I'm not sure what happens to my application if my status changes to non-EU citizen while it's pending, so I don't know whether to go ahead (involves a lot of bureaucracy). I am self-employed with clients across Europe (I don't travel myself) and hoping Brexit doesn't cause issues with this or access to health services... generally frustrated, angry and embarassed about the whole mess!

Thanks for starting this thread.

I've lived in France for the last twenty years with my British partner. We both work - I am employed by the French subsidiary of a UK plc, DH is a self-employed translator. We have two teenagers, both born in France, who now have French nationality. The older one is a student in Paris but the younger one still lives at home. We should qualify for a carte de séjour based on being foreign parents raising French children in France, if this turns out to be easier than whatever the alternative is.

We haven't done anything about citizenship or residency yet. I know I should get on with it and apply for a permanent EU carte de séjour, but am loathe to put time into something that could easily become invalid on 30th March. I'm not worried about our status - we're both bilingual, have an old 10 year cartes de séjour (from the days when cards were obligatory), have been paying taxes for 20 years, and family income is well above the "self-supporting" level. We're not going to be kicked out. But work travel could be complicated after brexit and I've already told my boss I won't be travelling outside France unless I am sure I will be able to get home afterwards. That's assuming I still have a job, since my employer is a manufacturer working in highly integrated JIT supply chains

DH reckons his work (pharma/ médical translation) is relatively secure and I also have translation experience so could pick up translation work if necessary.

Voilà ...

Hi Mistigri. I've seen you on these threads since before the referendum. I was posting as LoveInTokyo until a few weeks ago, and before the referendum I posted as butteredmuffin. That account mysteriously stopped working one day after I had one too many arguments on here with posters who I remain convinced were paid trolls. (SpringingIntoAction and Daisy something.) MNHQ never told me I'd been banned or anything like that - when I complained about my login not working they were like, "Oh really, how mysterious. Try again tomorrow."

I haven't applied for a titre de séjour either, even though that is the official advice from the British Embassy, because I have a sneaking feeling it will just be declared invalid and we'll be told to apply for a non EU one after Brexit anyway. I find all the paperwork daunting. (Even things like applying for the Carte Vitale and having to send off paperwork to get paid for holidays, and having to sort out taxes even when you're employed... Why make things simple when you can make them super complicated, eh France?). Right now I am planning a wedding for next month (already been legally married for a while) and then we need to find a new apartment. I also want to exchange my driving licence for a French one, get a new passport, and apply to join the roll of solicitors in Ireland before Brexit. So the titre de séjour is kind of taking a back seat at the moment. I hope I don't come to regret that decision!

French taxes are really easy Ethel, especially if you are salaried. (Slightly more complicated if you have some UK investment income). And the system is moving to PAYE next year, although you'll still have to submit a tax return.

There must be a recommended order to getting French paperwork sorted out as each piece of the jigsaw depends on something else. I am not happy as I contacted DWP in England for my notes to give to the French for a Carte Vitale, and DWP said I stopped being eligible for healthcare in the UK on the day I purchased my house in France. My EHIC expired sometime last year so I applied online which arrived a couple of days ago, fast service! It says helpfully that I can apply for new ones 6 months before one expires (great) but then my new one I have just received expires in 2 months! Since I travel anywhere in Europe to work I am worried about any restrictions I may get about FoM.

I’m also in Sweden and hoping I won’t need a visa come March as apparently it can be v v slow. I am employed over here though so shouldn’t get thrown out anyway!

I am in Sweden and have just been forced to take early retirement because of disability. The week that the Brexit vote was announced I applied for citizenship as I had been a resident for some time but never bothered before. It was easy, quick and fairly cheap: a 3 page form, £130 processing fee and it was granted less than 2 weeks later.