Brits in Europe - deal or no deal?

[EthelThePiratesDaughter]

This is a thread for British Mumsnetters living in another EU country to talk about what happens after next March if there is a deal or if there isn't.

I know that many things are unknown at this stage but I thought it could be a useful place for us to share whatever information we have and offer advice or support.

It would be nice if people could share a little bit of (non outy) information about themselves.

I'm in my early 30s, living in France since 2017, married to a French man and working locally. I plan to apply for French citizenship but won't be eligible until 2022.

My understanding at the moment is that if a deal is done it will include something on citizens' rights attempting to preserve the rights of people who have exercised their treaty rights before the withdrawal date. I guess this would include the right to stay living where we are at the moment but possibly not the right to move to another EU country. (I'm not worried about that part as my husband is French, so if we wanted to move to another EU country I could ironically find myself having more rights than I do in France, as per the Surinder Singh case.) What about short term travelling? Is it possible to have the right to live in one member state due to grandfathered treaty rights, but need a Schengen visa to go on holiday in another? Anyone know?

In the event of no deal I have literally no clue what happens. Do we just become illegal immigrants overnight?

Wow! That's so fast (and cheap!)

I think it's cheap in France, but not easy or quick!

Eh? DH's application has been stuck in Migrationsverket queue for over 2 years now.

I live in Germany, age 62, probably officially retiring in summer due to visual disability; no close family anywhere.

I applied for permanent residence status

However, they informed me that can't be done for current EU citizens, because we have already automatic right to stay - computer says no.
They asked upstairs and their legal bod came down and said he didn't know what would happen after Brexit.
All very friendly and sympathetic.

So, I will have to wait until 1 April and then apply, as a 3rd country citizen
A few politicians here have suggested making it easier for Brit expats, but not much political / public enthusiasm for special treatment - probably think we're always asking for that !

When I worked here in the 1990s, there was a 5-year residence permit, which just involved a brief trip to the local council offices with 2 photos and DM15.
It was a very simple form with dob, place of birth & German address, not much else.

< crossing fingers that the post-Brexit procedure isn't much more complicated >

I think the point about the titre de séjour is that it means that you have proved everything you need to prove (with the possible exception of increased level of revenue as a third country member) , even if the actual card would need to change. At our préfecture they said they would not bother to change the card until renewal in 10 years, but as we know, they all say something different. Ours were expensive because they asked for lots of official translations, but again they don't all do this.

I’m in the Netherlands and have been for fourteen and a half years and married to a Dutchman with 2 Dutch children. I will be one month shy of 15 years on 1st April. Once I reach 15 years I will apply for Dutch citizenship which should be relatively simple. I hope all goes ok, and I am worried about the consequences for my job. I am also entitled to an Irish passport but would feel like a cheat because I am not Irish. It’s all shit and I am still angry about the vote.

Has anyone else in Italy applied for the "attestazione di soggiorno permanente per cittadini UE"? I am going to ask about it today.

Kewqueue no i haven’t, but it does depend on the comune. Mine just gives you an ID card and that’s enough, apparently. You need to ask, some places just give it to you with no fuss, some demand 5 years of CUDs or payslips, some say you don’t need it and others don’t know what it is. Good luck with that!

Another Brit in France here, with British husband and 3 teenagers, one of whom is now has British/French nationality. The other 2 are only British. Not hugely worried about our situation as husband works for semi-government organisation, I work, have French driving license, and we've been here 15 years so feel if we needed to, we could go down nationality route. I am also in the Remain in France group and am thinking about getting carte de sejours, but not done anything about it yet. My biggest concern is for my children, who want to go to higher education in the UK, but depending upon what happens with Brexit may not be able to afford to do so if EU fees are changing to the same price as international ones. The government has just committed to maintaining the status quo for students starting in 2019 but nothing has been set for the years after.

@frozentree my DD (who has French nationality as well as UK) chose to stay in France for HE. She would have been a potential oxbridge candidate and prior to Brexit I'd have expected her to make UK applications. But her view of the UK has changed completely plus there is the uncertainly about the equivalence of qualifications obtained in the UK.

For your non-French kids bear in mind that they would risk losing their permanent residence too :(

French unis rightly have a mostly rather poor reputation but there are some extremely good (selective) courses both at universities and elsewhere. My DD's course is excellent. There are also some good courses elsewhere in the EU.

my DD (who has French nationality as well as UK) chose to stay in France for HE

If it's any help we have two sets of friends with teenage DC they are in one case Dutch/French and the other French/Italian.

Both used to live in London and had their children here but now have decamped to Singapore and France respectively.

Both sets of DCs went to school here and were scheduled to apply for Unis here too. One was intending Oxbridge.

Both families independently chose Amsterdam Uni instead. Some Courses are in English as well as Dutch I understand. They were worried about many things, mostly no longer being welcome.

So Amsterdam is worth a look apparently. I'd definitely trust their judgment.

Yes, universities are not that great but Grandes Ecoles are where many students head to. My DD is dual, lives in the UK, wants to be a Vet. She will now consider Grande Ecole Maisons D'Alfort

I’m in Germany and we as a family now have dual German British citizenship - was the only Option we felt could guarantee our status quo, fortunately had been here long enough to qualify and it was fairly straightforward if a bit time consuming.

I’m in Portugal, been here 15 years with English husband. We’ve both worked and paid tax/social security the whole time (self employed). Our current residências expire in March 2019! However I have an Irish passport and have applied for Portuguese citizenship. After a further 3 years of marriage from when I receive my citizenship, my husband can also apply (we’ve already been married 31 years). To apply for citizenship you need to pass a language exam and provide police records for every country you’ve lived in since the age of 18 - the language exam is what stops a lot of brits from going for it, it is quite difficult and I was surprised I passed. We do have private pensions in the uk and investment properties so will have to see what happens there

@lonelyplanetmum and @frozentree

Netherlands is a popular destination because of english language courses, but there are lots of other opportunities. For eg the bilingual (French German) teenage daughters of a friend are both studying medicine in Lithuania where the course is taught in English!

Note that the FoM issue is still a problem for British students who study in continental Europe, because as students they may not qualify for permanent residence, but due to being absent from France they may lose their French residency rights. This is an issue for a friend of mine whose daughter is studying in Rotterdam. We don't know what the outcome might be, but it's not looking that great at the moment.

In France, for students interested in economics/politics/social studies, Sciences Po has an English speaking campus in Reims, and English language modules at the main campus in Paris. My daughter's course at PSL includes compulsory English literature and history/ politics for all students (including those in the science stream). In her English class group many of the students are bilingual - often children of parents who have worked in the US or UK. So even in France it's perfectly possible to find courses with a significant part of the coursework taught in English, although they do tend to have extremely competitive entry (on DD's course, 3500 applications for 150 places).

Unfortunately my eldest in terminal wants to do medicine and absolutely refuses to consider HE in France. She is looking at other European universities as well as those in the UK. I think the fact that they have never lived in the UK and go back regularly to very nice parts of the UK means that it is still very appealing despite the Brexit fiasco.

Sorry I don't have a link but the EU website (I think) has a list of requirements for 'foreign nationals' to live in various countries in the EU. Unless the policy gets changed I think most ho have been in the country and are in the tax system etc will be 'OK'. Bizarrely once I have been in France a year, as long as I can prove I have funds to keep myself I can stay if I retire! The situations may be different for other countries but there was a list and by selecting country, and current situation you can see the requirements. Now I can only pray the EU don't change their mind out of spite.

Frozentree, I can understand the reluctance to study medicine in France tbh, unless you live in one of the areas where they are trialling the replacement for PACES.

Given that Theresa May has confirmed the status as permanent for all EU citizens here I think we can expect the EU to do the same. I can understand your concern, anyone would feel worried in this situation. My friends from the EU were very relieved when the PM made the announcement. So I do hope someone from the EU will speak out soon and offer the same reassurances.

Given that Theresa May has confirmed the status as permanent for all EU citizens here I think we can expect the EU to do the same.

Unless that is in writing, and completely accepted, I really wouldn't rely on it.

Theresa May has said a lot of things. Admittedly not everything has been complete bollocks, but enough that I'd want additional watertight guarantees.

Yes, the problem is that while it's likely that something will be organised for Britons in the EU, there will be multiple gaps to fall through.

There is a real risk that the children of Britons in Europe will lose their residency status if they study outside of the EU country where they are resident. I have seen no official discussion of this issue, let alone any sensible proposals to solve it.

And also - making grand gestures on tv isn't the answer either

Well the rights of people is the most important thing.

Just saying "they can stay" isn't really good enough. How about access to NHS ? Benefits ? Pensions ? Are we going to see someone who has lived here all their life (say 43 years) as an EU citizen, but not a UK citizen, suddenly discover their right to a pension evaporate ? Bet we do.

Several posters on here have noted that their parents who came here many years ago and did not/could not take UK citizenship are at risk of being kicked out a la Windrush.

It's not that easy. Which is probably why it's being fudged, fudged, and fudged again.