Brits in Europe - deal or no deal?

[EthelThePiratesDaughter]

This is a thread for British Mumsnetters living in another EU country to talk about what happens after next March if there is a deal or if there isn't.

I know that many things are unknown at this stage but I thought it could be a useful place for us to share whatever information we have and offer advice or support.

It would be nice if people could share a little bit of (non outy) information about themselves.

I'm in my early 30s, living in France since 2017, married to a French man and working locally. I plan to apply for French citizenship but won't be eligible until 2022.

My understanding at the moment is that if a deal is done it will include something on citizens' rights attempting to preserve the rights of people who have exercised their treaty rights before the withdrawal date. I guess this would include the right to stay living where we are at the moment but possibly not the right to move to another EU country. (I'm not worried about that part as my husband is French, so if we wanted to move to another EU country I could ironically find myself having more rights than I do in France, as per the Surinder Singh case.) What about short term travelling? Is it possible to have the right to live in one member state due to grandfathered treaty rights, but need a Schengen visa to go on holiday in another? Anyone know?

In the event of no deal I have literally no clue what happens. Do we just become illegal immigrants overnight?

I'm in France, married to a Brit in the Netherlands which is home. He should be ok, and will meet citizenship requirements soonish. That'll mean losing his UK passport though.

I'm terrified for me. My contract here runs out in March so I'll be heading back to NL to try to make base before the big day. But I've been in and out of NL so many times and my job requires free movement. I might be able to get an extension in France, but then I'd be stuck in France without a visa and without DH, so I'd probably turn it down. There's no job in NL for me, I can't change careers without a work permit and I'm not sure I'll get any sort of residency when unemployed. I could easily (even with visas) get another contract somewhere else in Europe, but I won't be able to travel to interviews or guarantee getting a permit. So we're assuming at least 6 months and probably more with only one income and a mortgage to pay until I can get paperwork sorted. Hopefully DHs job will pay to fast track visas etc rather than just firing him. Otherwise we're screwed.

I also expect all sorts of shit from the home office. There's no way the UK are going to be organised enough to provide the documentation we need to prove we exist to get residency

I also expect all sorts of shit from the home office. There's no way the UK are going to be organised enough to provide the documentation we need to prove we exist to get residency

I'm less worried about the U.K. than I am about Thailand. I'm going to need a nulla osta from both other countrys I've lived in if the only way through this is citizenship. I went through the more complicated immigration process in the U.K. with my first husband (Thai). I'm dreading a rerun in Italy (😫) involving 2 other countries.

I'm not even sure my late FIL didn't "smooth" the process of my perm. visa over there. He said a case of whisky being shoved under the desk was normal .... I might have been not exactly legal the whole time and was too young, too stupid and too non-Thai speaking to know it. Which has the potential to seriously screw up a nulla osta.

Has anybody noticed any rising panic from the EU based TEFL industry ?

When they start panicking I'll know it is time to join in with my best headless chicken impersonation.

rising panic from the EU based TEFL industry

From what I have seen (don't teach but have friends that do) the TEFL industry is quite fragmented and short-termist. Plus - assuming working Britons are allowed to stay - the TEFL industry will be able to continue to exploit them (often with illegal contracts, and it'll be harder for anyone to object). The impact will come further down the line, because the pipeline of new entrants will be turned off.

Has anybody noticed any rising panic from the EU based TEFL industry ?

Do people really need Brits to teach English anymore ? As a Japanese business once said (in the 70s) when asked what he felt the UK had to contribute to Japanese prosperity (which kinda tells you that head-up-arsery isn't a 21st century development) ...

The only thing we need from the English is their language ... and we've already got it

I think they do in France, DGRossetti. Because everyone in salaried work has credits to use on training, the TEFL industry is quite big.

I think they do in France, DGRossetti. Because everyone in salaried work has credits to use on training, the TEFL industry is quite big.

But that doesn't translate to needing Brits to teach English ?

Bearing in mind one of my French teachers at high school was Italian (he then retrained as a maths teacher).

All very well, you may say. Only his English was worse my my DFs. (Incidentally, my DFs English is the best of anyone who came to the UK as an adult I have ever heard.)

Or are French standards that much higher ?

Maybe I should look to TEFL ?

They already have trouble recruiting English teachers to teach in French secondary schools (and the bar is pretty low in schools). There will be a shortage, but not yet.

I can't speak for other EU countries, but as a general rule Europeans who speak English well are likely to already be in jobs that pay better than TEFL.

I can't speak for other EU countries, but as a general rule Europeans who speak English well are likely to already be in jobs that pay better than TEFL.

Given my memories of DS parents evenings, I guess it's the same in the UK

As a tefl teacher, many countries have worked out that you don't need Brits to teach English. It's impossible to get a tefl job in schools in central and northern europe for exactly this reason - the danes and the germans and the scandewegians have worked it out. On the other hand the southern europeans like spain and italy still think that we have magic abilities, mostly because their state school system for efl is shite. Asia still wants to import us, as does south america to a degree. The middle east is hungry for experienced and qualified teachers for whom it's a career rather than a gap year.

If our working rights get screwed by brexit you're left with a choice between crap money in thailand, crap living standards in china/japan, and the middle east once you've survived 3-4 years in the former.

BigChoc pensioners in France who were legally resident in the country at the time of Brexit would have the right in law to health cover under the PUMA scheme. Is that not the case in other countries? Can they really descriminate by age?

...discriminate FFS

The impact will come further down the line, because the pipeline of new entrants will be turned off.

Yes, but they have had time to plan for that. I'm expecting recruitment to focus on Ireland and I don't doubt the chains and the bigger independents have already formulated a process for that. Plus I'm expecting a sudden relaxation on CELTA as a minimum requirement. I anticipate a lot of in-house "training" to become quite popular at least in the short term. If Ireland can provide enough warm bodies to cover most of the mid range schools and up, in conjunction with with near bilingual EU citizens being rebranded as "just as good as native speakers" I think panic in the industry will be more limited.

However, a major issue in the industry is that staff turnover is so high. For obvious reasons. The CELTA industry has that covered at the moment, pumping out enough teachers throughout the academic year to stop the staff outflow hampering the industry's bottom line.

As we get nearer and nearer to the leave date that reliable flow of new bodies will start to dwindle, as people naturally enough don't want to start off already under a cloud of the unknown. So in the short term hanging onto current staff is going to be a priority. It'd be a serious spoke in the wheels if new immigration terms and conditions leave a sudden space in your staff room where a notable number of your teachers used to be. Some of the current crop will be post referendum/article 50 arrivals and one of those might end up being the cut off date for a deal. Some who are not fixed in place by romantic/family commitments, despite arriving on a pre referendum date, might feel that new, particularly onerous immigration hassles/costs are not worth it and decide to cut their losses in favour of elsewhere, or get out of the industry entirely.

A sudden loss of teachers at very short notice could end a number of schools and make the survival much harder for others. If that sudden loss starts to look like it might be on the cards, via whispers amoung business types who know somebody who knows somebody, then there'll be flapping. It won't be useful information about what to do about our individual circumstances. But it might give an indication as per what businesses are expecting in terms of what is going to happen to us.

Where the flap happens might indicate which countries are going to take a harder, more difficult to navigate line. TEFL is kind of a canary in the mine in that sense, given that they are one of the industries that relies so heavily on U.K. staff.

Has anyone else in Italy applied for the "attestazione di soggiorno permanente per cittadini UE"? I am going to ask about it today.

I hadn't even heard of it until I saw it here. I'll pop into the comune this week if I get a some free time and see what gives. If you hear anything useful could you post it here ?

Thanks for starting this thread OP. I feel for all the people whose lives are potentially going to be messed up by this fiasco.

I am a Brit married to a Frenchman and resident in France since 2002. Also mother to 2 French DC. I have applied for French nationality but don't expect to hear until June 2019.
Next step, now I have stopped reeling from the paperwork involved in requesting French nationality, is the request for a carte de séjour.
I am not planning any trips to the UK until my papers are in order. I just hope my elderly parent in the UK stays healthy next Spring.

But that doesn't translate to needing Brits to teach English ?

While there is a growing movement to stop the constant waggling of native speakers as a selling point, the reality is that changing clients' minds is a slow process.

With a constant flow of "just done my CELTA" warm bodies from the U.K, who don't know their employment rights from their elbow upon arrival, the industry in parts of the EU can have staffrooms that are overwhelmingly British. Which suited the schools down to the ground. Win, win. So they haven't been overly keen on countering the idea that only NS are worth paying top euro for.

Which was fine from a business perspective when the U.K. was producing swathes of new shiny CELTAs, who came with no onerous immigration processes, and a willingness to work for peanuts in precarious employment.

Not so much now. So I do think longer term NNS will get a boost from Brexit in terms of finding it much easier to break into the business and be supported by the school when clients complain about not having a NS teacher. There simply won't be enough Irish entrants to the industry to go around, so schools will be a lot more motivated to challenge "NS Superiority" as a concept. But clients accepting that won't happen overnight. NSs have been pushed forward as the bees knees for the 30 years I've been in the industry and that ship will take some turning.

So according to the new poster employed by Leave Central us Brits living in the EU are 2nd class citizens who shouldn't get the same protections as other Brits. Our government owes us a lesser duty of care. Unfuckingbelieveable.

Reasons to hate the UK Gov, number 507.
Eligibility to use NHS in the UK for free ended the day I signed for a house in France. They didn't even send me a letter to tell me.
45 years paying into NHS and get 'dumped' immediately, Bar stewards.

I can't speak for other EU countries, but as a general rule Europeans who speak English well are likely to already be in jobs that pay better than TEFL.

The movement to stop discrimination against NNSs (TEFL Equity if anybody is interested) seems to be heavily slanted in numbers to people from the EU East. Although there are growing numbers from the South looking to move North.

As the NS mythology starts to fade I don't immagine that all will remain in the industry long term if they can help it. TEFL has always been a one route to at least grab a "professional" job abroad quite quickly and buy yourself some "feet on the ground" time. It can be hard to get an interview for a great job if you don't live in the country where it is being advertised. A job in EFL, while not ideal, at least lets you to look around for a position, in another industry, that you are well qualified to do, with a much better chance of getting your foot in the door after sending in your CV.

@CesiraAndEnrico

Plus I'm expecting a sudden relaxation on CELTA as a minimum requirement. I anticipate a lot of in-house "training" to become quite popular at least in the short term.

Not while Cambridge Exams remain one of the top 3 benchmarks for entry to Universities and Professional development courses. Over the last few years my work has been heavily, heavily centred around getting students through their PET, KET and FCE or CAE. Doing the CELTA is one of the main things employers look for precisely because the teaching qualification and examination are run by the same organisation. Of course we've had a chunk of IELTS and a tiny scattering of TOEFL work too, but nothing like the amount of Cambridge exams taken by the public school sector. I'm teaching Business English now anyway, and have enough years experience for it not to matter too much, but I'd be extremely surprised if the CELTA lost value post-Brexit, unless places started dropping the aforementioned exams in favour of other alternatives.

I'm another Brit in France with my British DH and 3 French cats! Been here 15 years and we were in Germany for 2 years before that. We missed qualifying to vote in the referendum by about 2 weeks

We are in our 50s and 8 years into a pretty big mortgage due to living in the most expensive part of France outside Paris. Our situation is complicated by the fact that DH works just across the border in Switzerland, meaning we are way way down the list of fuck-giving by the British government. After 20 years as a contractor he started a permanent job earlier this year, but his work permit is based on him being a frontalier... one who has the right to reside in France. We are hoping his employers have a plan up their sleeves to hang onto staff in this position but who knows? It adds an extra layer of stress to an already stressful situation. I haven't worked much recently due to health problems but used to work for myself with many of my clients in the U.K. so not sure how that will work if I am able to restart.

Due to the vagaries of the Swiss tax system we have paid some tax in France over the years and some in Switzerland (depends which canton you are employed in). Hoping that won't make our position worse. We are not even technically in the French 'system' as we have private health insurance with worldwide coverage (got it initially because we were moving around) and DH pays 'contributions' - pension, unemployment insurance, etc, in Switzerland (there is an arrangement between France and Switzerland where compensation is paid between the two countries for cross-border workers). Though we are obviously registered with the Marie and pay all the French costs/taxes associated with owning a house.

So it all feels very uncertain... like others we haven't applied for residency as it may all change after March. Can't decide whether to exchange my driving licence for a French one (which yes, I should have done years ago) before the rush starts or whether not to bother as we may be kicked out.

Ethel I remember your voice of reason from when you were LoveinTokyo.

MissClimpson It's not a matter of discrimination, just that state healthcare in most of the E27 depends on having worked there and joined the state healthcare system, or gained entitlement to it via work.

Totally different to the UK where the NHS entitlement is based on legal residence

Basically, Brit pensioners who have worked for several years in their E27 country of residence would have belonged to the state or non-profit system there,
and / or would have already qualified for state care as a pensioner, just like their E27 hosts would.

However, many Brit pensioners worked entirely in the UK, then retired to sunnier E27 climes
These are the ones who currently have their healthcare refunded by the UK to their country of residence
and can't afford / don't qualify for private insurance now.

What exacerbates the problem: the much lower pound has reduced the value of the Uk pensions that most of them rely on.

I'm glad I have had private healthcare for 30 years, but - as I kept my British insurance - I can see that the age-related rises make even this method prohibitive for anyone on a small Uk pension.

Remember the existing EEA agreement for countries to refund their pensioners' care was pushed / sponsored by a Spanish MEP,
because of the large numbers of Brit expats in his area who had no healthcare and hence were using, or trying to use, the Spanish system which they had not paid into.

Many EU countries don't allow more than basic or emergency care without insurance.
Especially if UK pensioner expats are treated post-Brexit like those of any other 3rd country, say India.

I imagine that healthcare arrangements differ quite widely between member states. The only requirement is that all EEA nationals be treated identically for social security purposes.

In France your sécu usually has a "valid until" date and I have heard of Britons receiving notice that their cover will end at the end of March. The problem is that to have valid sécu cover you must be legally resident - which potentially we won't be.

BigChoc we were already in France when Sarkozy tried to remove the right to healthcare for early retirees here. I was part of the pressure group that got that ruling overturned so I do know a bit about the rules. In France now, legal residents (not just EU) have the right to join a part of the health service called PUMA. You pay 8% of your income above a threshold (about 10k€ from memory) for it. As far as I can see in Spain, you can also pay in a fixed amount each month to join the health service (a sum which is less than the top-up insurance we also have to pay in France). I know that Germany has an insurance based system, so I imagine it is more difficult there, but I wonder how many pensioners move there after retirement? Private insurance is indeed out of the question for many pensioners because of pre-existing conditions. Clearly paying to join a health service will put a strain on diminished resources (as pensioners we have lost 15% of our income since Brexit), but nevertheless in the countries with the biggest numbers, there is a route into the state health service.

I heard that story too Mistigri, but I think it was only one CPAM saying it? Are you saying people would not be legally resident because they had lost their health care? That would be a fine Catch 22 wouldn't it. If we are legally resident under the rules of third country residents then I think they would be on dodgy ground to refuse PUMA.
I have always been inclined to think that the S1 scheme is likely to continue though. It would not seem to be in the interests of Britain to stop it or the EU countries to refuse to accept imo.

Not while Cambridge Exams remain one of the top 3 benchmarks for entry to Universities and Professional development courses. Over the last few years my work has been heavily, heavily centred around getting students through their PET, KET and FCE or CAE

Mine too since around '97. But I worked at the top end of the market before I walked away from language schools entirely.

The end of the market still focused on their own in-house certification accounts for a good chunk of the market and until recently they have usually wanted a CELTA, because they can often afford to set that as a requirement given the number of applicants they get.

But in the Actual Brexit Has Happened interim period, with a significantly shrunken number of immigration hassle-free NSs flowing in, there won't be enough to go around anymore. Especially if the new rules are tough and mean some people have to leave. While others, who don't have ties, feel if they are going to having immigration and visa headaches they'd rather work in regions where language schools are more used to dealing with those sorts of issues on the behalf of staff. That's where the potential sudden drop of warm bodies in the staff room could become an immediate survival issue for a number of language schools.

In either of those scenarios compromise has to sought. The only question is how fast. At the present time in many areas it is still easier to flog "shiny NS" with an online TEFL cert. from a dubious operation than it is a NNS with high quality qualifications and experience coming out of their ears.

Over time I think any focus on unqualified NSs will wane and I anticipate a flip towards selling clients the idea of better qualified NNS to clients. Especially down here in the South of the EU, because I think the bouncier economies of the Northern end of the EU will possibly allow schools to offer far more attractive packages for NS teachers than can be matched down here. Which could suck up a lot of the limited supply from Ireland.

But in the immediate aftermath of Brexit, with so many clients unaware the CELTA and DELTA even exist, while being utterly convinced they are only getting value for money if their teacher is a NS, a fudge will be needed. None of the outfits I worked for at the lower end of the market had any qualms about fudging if it helped the bottom line. Talking to people still working in and around that end of the market, things don't seem to have changed much.

The only other work around I can see for that end of the market is massively upping their offerings of virtual learning, so they can tap into a supply of teachers who are back at home, or scattered all over the globe. But that is going to be a hard sell down here where internet penetration is still relatively low.

In France your sécu usually has a "valid until" date and I have heard of Britons receiving notice that their cover will end at the end of March.

Bloody hell.

I can see how that would cause a serious case of the willies.