Brits in Europe - deal or no deal?

[EthelThePiratesDaughter]

This is a thread for British Mumsnetters living in another EU country to talk about what happens after next March if there is a deal or if there isn't.

I know that many things are unknown at this stage but I thought it could be a useful place for us to share whatever information we have and offer advice or support.

It would be nice if people could share a little bit of (non outy) information about themselves.

I'm in my early 30s, living in France since 2017, married to a French man and working locally. I plan to apply for French citizenship but won't be eligible until 2022.

My understanding at the moment is that if a deal is done it will include something on citizens' rights attempting to preserve the rights of people who have exercised their treaty rights before the withdrawal date. I guess this would include the right to stay living where we are at the moment but possibly not the right to move to another EU country. (I'm not worried about that part as my husband is French, so if we wanted to move to another EU country I could ironically find myself having more rights than I do in France, as per the Surinder Singh case.) What about short term travelling? Is it possible to have the right to live in one member state due to grandfathered treaty rights, but need a Schengen visa to go on holiday in another? Anyone know?

In the event of no deal I have literally no clue what happens. Do we just become illegal immigrants overnight?

I am surprised by how many people are adopting the wait and see policy.

We got our French Nationality a few years ago, but if we hadn't I would have been at the prefecture the day after the Brexit vote.

I changed my Driving licence years ago, but certainly wouldn't trust one to be legal now, if you have an accident in April then you would be considered to be Driving without a valid licence which would invalidate your insurance.

I just couldn't live my life hoping that it will be alright. EU countries have their own laws to do with thrid country résidents, as of March that will include UK nationals. They may allow a period of grace, but in some cases but that might need they need to change their own laws.

We have got our titres de séjour and feel very happy to have them. Apart from that the spreadsheets on which we record and plan our finances have a column that shows income lost since the sustained fall in the pound since Brexit day. It is a pretty horrifying sum. It does enable us to adjust expenditure and plan carefully though. We are in the health system by a different route so the S1 form is not a concern for us.
Not sure what else we can do at this stage apart from grow lots of food.

The tessera sanitaria (health card) is only valid 5 years, but if you pay in, either via salaried work or regular personal payments, it should automatically get renewed. I’ve noticed mine is valid until 2021, I will keep an eye on it when it’s time to renew, but hope to have my citizenship by then. If the bearded loon hasn’t had his way and lengthened yet further the waiting times.

As to the wait and see approach, in my case it was a horror of having to endure more Italian bureaucracy than strictly necessary. Despite having an Italian parent (who I could physically present to anyone who cared) the documentation required was exhausting. Couple that with officials not knowing anything and sending you from pillar to post on a wild goose chase and you can see why I held off as long as I did. When I first moved here there were no computers in public admin! All documentation was in 11 million copies with various stamps stuck to them which you had to pay for. Things have moved on, fortunately, and there are (rare) flashes of extreme efficiency that my Austrian and French colleagues envy.

Are you saying people would not be legally resident because they had lost their health care?

No - that potentially in a worst case scenario there will be a gap in our healthcare insurance because we do not have legal residence (which is a condition of healthcare coverage). A permanent EU résidents' card may be accepted, and I know that people are being advised to get one, but technically it will become invalid after Brexit when we are no longer EU citizens.

I am inclined to think that the worst will not happen but am going to get my old titre de séjour renewed.

As to the wait and see approach, in my case it was a horror of having to endure more Italian bureaucracy than strictly necessary.

Seconded.

I heard that story too Mistigri, but I think it was only one CPAM saying it?

That might well be the case. There's definitely a certain amount of local variation - in the old days (pre 2004) it was much easier to get a titre de séjour in some départements than in others.

I have also heard of the CAF asking for proof of legal residency from British citizens - this has been going on for a couple of years. Again seems to be patchy. I have never had any issues though (and I no longer get anything from the CAF so that's one less thing to worry about).

If the Tories had had our interests and concerns at heart, they would have granted us a vote and made us a priority in negotiations. They didn't and they still don't.

Cameron had promised in his 2015 Manifesto to enfranchise British Citizens who had lived abroad for more than 15 years. He ought to have got round to it for his own political sake, because it might have saved his career.

On the other hand, I can envisage that many 'ex-pats' i.e. British immigrant enclaves in Spain, might easily have still voted to come out of the EU, somehow thinking that it wouldn't affect them.

I wouldn't expect anything from Theresa May - apart from her walking trips, she doesn't do 'furrin'.

On healthcare. A bit outing but I purchased a house in France in January.
I contacted DWP in England for a form about transferring healthcare to France to vet a carte vitale.
The English covering letter said I was removed from the NHS on the date I paid for my house so I am not eligible for healthcare in the UK despite that I am still paying taxes to the UK and have been for 45+ years.
I phoned to query this yesterday.
Is this a recent change?

Is this all to do with Residence as defined by HMRC LeClerc?

Healthcare depends where you are resident. Just buying a house wouldn't necessarily change your country of residence, but living in it would. This hasn't changed btw so it may be that there have been some crossed wires. Where do you think you are resident?

When we moved permanently we informed HMRC and DWP and got the forms in motion to move from that date to the French tax and health systems. We had already owned the house for a while, but that date became the official date of leaving the country. We are frequently asked to provide it for various authorities. That was the date on which we left the UK health system, but we were covered in the French system by the workers' S1 which lasted eighteen months. We went to CPAM and registered and our French health cover was put in place. Later we ran a small business and our health cover moved to that régime.

Also Leclerc you won't be able to prove any rights to residence if you are not formally in the French tax and health systems. I am obliged to pay tax on my occupational pension in the UK, but DH's pensions and our state pensions are taxed here. We fill out a French tax form and get a credit against the tax I have paid in the UK but it is essential to be in the system. Our local tax office is very helpful, but I can't speak for them all.

In response to the surprise at the 'wait and see' policy mentioned above, I think the reason we have been a little reluctant to commit to sorting out cartes de sejours is due to what happened when we first tried in 2003.

We arrived in France from the Middle East, I was pregnant with my 3rd child so my husband made a couple of trips to the prefecture to try and sort out the paperwork. After spending a fortune on translations and slightly losing the will to live on each visit, he finally made it there with everything required and then was told that in fact we no longer required cartes de sejour as Europeans did not need them anymore. Why they couldn't have mentioned that this change was coming on the first visit which was less than a month previously and saved us all the hassle and cost I don't know.

So I am a little wary of going down this road again only to be told after March 2019 that we will need something different.

frozentree the RIFT group and the Embassy have worked on this with the Ministry of the Interior. They have said that people are advised to get a Carte de Séjour now and the Préfectures have been issued with guidance. Reading individual experiences on the RIFT group pages, it seems that this is having an impact and préfectures are now generally much more helpful.
When we did ours last year they said that we didn't actually need them, but we were certainly entitled to them and they understood about Brexit and that it was very unlikely that the card would be changed in the short term. The point is that we will have established the right to legal residence.

This is the relevant RIFT page on carte de séjour.
www.remaininfrance.org/carte-de-sejour.html

missclimpson Oh I know - it's just an excuse to avoid having to go through the process! It is on my list of things to do.... I've just sorted out my daughter's French nationality so am catching my breath before the next step.

I do understand; we needed a long rest after the cost all the translations and five 100km round trips to the préfecture with hours of waiting each time.

Thank you all for your comments. I am fully resident in France so OK. It would have been nice if the DWP had told me. In fact I am a bit mystified anyway because I hardly told anyone the date.
After 3 weeks for an appointment to get into the work/tax system I have just seen a nice lady who explained it was the wrong department and now have an appointment in 2 weeks. What fun! Others turning up at the Pole Emploi were clutching reams of paperwork too so I don't feel victimised.

Actually Leclerc you need that letter saying you are not covered by the UK to get into the system iirc. We had to ask for one.
Absolutely not victimised. All our French friends say "it is just as bad for us you know". 😀

@miss
Yes, as long as Gendarmes don't turn up asking for things I haven't sorted yet I am happy. My French friends also complain about the 'systems' and a load of other things. Mostly 'pub grumbles' as far as I can tell.

Some potential good news in the Guardian today:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/28/uk-nationals-suffer-skills-eu-immigration-tories-brexit

Verhofstadt tells Javid that 15 member states have also decided to take this approach to giving settled status to the British nationals living in their countries.

Ten member states, he writes, have opted for a simpler, declaratory approach, favoured by the lobby groups representing EU and British nationals most affected by Brexit, under which they can assume settled status and “which means very little change as to the situation today”. The EU is also looking at providing an identical set of papers to all British nationals with settled status.

Verhofstadt writes: “There is large consensus among member states on the need to have uniform documentation for UK citizens allowing easier recognition across the EU. There are, however, diverging approaches regarding the dates from which it will be possible to submit applications and for the start of the accompanying information campaigns.”

So there may be hoops to jump through, and the article refers to a transition period so the plans may not be totally No Deal proof, but a positive development anyway.

Really glad to find this thread and thanks for all the links to relevant info. I am progressively concerned about how this could impact on our day to day life, the most basic thing being the driving licence.

We are on a 2 year contract to an EU country, ending next summer so I do not want to change to our resident country's licence if at all possible, as that is not the simplest of procedures where we are, especially to then change it back in the summer.

I had planned to pick up an IDP when home at Christmas to cover us just in case, but now see that a valid one can only be bought after 1st Feb.

Does anyone know if you must do this in person? It reads that way. Surely there ought to be a way that short-term EU-resident Brits, (who arguably need it most!), can access it without being forced to travel back in that short window?

Surely there ought to be a way that short-term EU-resident Brits, (who arguably need it most!), can access it without being forced to travel back in that short window?

You would think so, but the UK government has not so far considered any of the implications for Britons abroad in its planning and negotiations.

You would think so, but the UK government has not so far considered any of the implications for Britons abroad in its planning and negotiations.

As a former business mentor of mine would note ... if they hadn't thought of them before, then why would they start now ? After all, looks like Brits abroad are being disenfranchised before our very eyes.