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Brexit

Westministenders: Gin O'Clock

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/09/2018 14:08

After disaster after Salzberg and a very predictable humilation over the Chequers Deal which the ERG reject, moderate Brexiteers reject, Remainers reject and the EU reject....

May does a press conference...

...which is delayed by a power shortage inside No. 10.

And....

GinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGin
GinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGinGin

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DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 13:45

The Buzzfeed piece (www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/jeremy-corbyn-real-brexit-strategy) is fascinating. However, the first comment on it pretty much nails the problem with it.

It's all about England and English Leave voters. There's fuck all for Scottish Remainers to get excited about.

Quietrebel · 26/09/2018 13:49

mybrexit

Thing is, Corbyn will really struggle to implement his strategy if the country is in tatters with a No Deal. Where is the money going to come from?
Really he should sell his measures as part of a remain or norway+ package.

prettybird · 26/09/2018 14:40

Corbyn blamed the SNP for "accepting" Conservative austerity cuts Confused The fact that the Scottish Government is doing its best to mitigate the austerity cuts where it can (eg the bedroom tax), given that it only has its pocket money to work with and given that it only has very limited welfare powers Confused

Yet Leonard (the Scottish Labour Party branch office leader) has said that Scotland should not have a 2nd Indyref and Corbyn himself wouldn't get odd the fence about it Hmm

And nothing of any substance that wasn't cakeism about what the Labour Party actually expects to get from a different negotiation with the EU Confused A Brexit that delivers jobs and workers rights doesn't wash it Hmm

pumkinspicetime · 26/09/2018 14:52

I'm with quietrebel on this one, caring about buses is all well and good but government by the lowest common denominator isn't the sort of leadership I am looking for. You need a functioning economy to be able invest In deprived communities. I also feel that he is all about party rather than actually looking at what the country needs, not that TM is any different!

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 14:58

All of that said, trying to sympathise/empathise highlights the Labour bind. Given they are operating in a very hostile media environment, and that any "Labour" news will be bad, and only serves to reduce the newscape available for bad Tory news. Which is hardly much to start with.

Also, whatever happens this week all bets are off when(ever) the next election happens. That's when a manifesto has to be put before the public. And that will be the key document for people like myself and quite a few other "don't know" voters.

So we're back to it making sense for Labour to lie low - certainly about Brexit. Each passing day suggests that Treeza is going to serve up the endlessly reheated Chequers deal to both the EU and parliament, precipitating no deal. Presumably at that point we hit a General Election when Labour can lay out it's stall away from the frothing going on at the moment. The least I would ask of that manifesto to secure my vote would be a pledge to offer the country some sort of chance to stop the madness of no-deal crash out by simply not leaving the EU. We'll take our chances from there.

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 14:59

You need a functioning economy to be able invest In deprived communities.

You also need the political will.

prettybird · 26/09/2018 15:31

May in NY: "There is no other plan [other than the one she has put forward, with frictionless trade at its heart] that protects jobs and meets our commitments in NI, while respecting how people voted in the largest democratic exercise in our history"

a) is she admitting that the electorate voted for a pup since by her own government's impact assessments, no scenario for leaving the UK protects jobs?

and

b) I see she is being infected by Trump false news exaggeration, unless she doesn't consider general elections to be democratic exercises Hmm There have been higher percentage turnouts in elections; just because more people voted in the EU Referendum is irrelevant because of the larger size of the electorate.

And that's before even commenting on how her plan does not address the UK's commitments in NI Sad

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 26/09/2018 15:35

I read that letter (although I am probably biassed) that the MPs
??? are almost attempting to blame the NHS for Brexit so THE NHS
should be doing all the running around and preparation.

LeClerc whilst I think it’s clear the government are indeed trying to offload responsibility for No Deal planning onto the NHS, supermarkets etc, I didn’t actually interpret this letter as blaming the NHS. To me it reads that she is simply reporting the NHS’s concern over the lack of planning from the government.

Or am I giving an MP too much credit here? Confused

1tisILeClerc · 26/09/2018 15:35

{You need a functioning economy to be able invest In deprived communities.

You also need the political will.}

So all parties have had a few hundred years to sort that out but haven't.

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 15:39

So all parties have had a few hundred years to sort that out but haven't

Is that a penny dropping ?

To be fair, it's not "hundreds" of years. I think a fair starting point would be when suffrage was equalised, so 1928 - 90 years.

prettybird · 26/09/2018 15:45

The clock could even have been started just 70 years ago, after the devastation of WW2, where many of the European countries were starting again from scratch.

Remind me again who got by far the most Aid under the Marshall Plan and what was done with it? SadAngry

1tisILeClerc · 26/09/2018 15:46

I was thinking of things like the slave trade and early industrialisation. Titus Salt and a number of (I believe mostly Quaker) industrialists appreciated the need for treating workers at least fairly well. Oh look a house handily close to the factory so you can get to work on time!
It is taking the idea of people rather than an expendable 'resource'.

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 15:51

One of the most disturbing things I have seen on a historical programme (PBS "History Detectives") was a bill of sale for a slave, from the 1800s.

www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigation/bill-of-sale/

While cleaning out her parents’ attic, Jeanie Hans found a box of her grandfather’s possessions. Among some books and old gun manuals she found a disturbing document: an 1829 ‘Bill of Sale’ for the purchase of a 17-year old “negro girl” named Willoby.

prettybird · 26/09/2018 16:10

That's a fair point TisILeClerc

Many of the tenements in Glasgow were built not by altruistic entrepreneurs but by the tobacco lords (and others of their ilk) who wanted reasonable accommodation for their workers. Ditto with the sewer system. Our fresh water coming down from Loch Katrine was in order to ensure safe drinking water.

I think London is similar.

It's a concept that seems to have been forgotten. The idea that increasing the health of the workers actually helps the owners. And they can turn into consumers with more money to spend Shock

How about this strange concept?: a group of countries could get together, work together for the common good, the workers can go where the work is, it's really simple and straightforward to sell to each other, the would have a stronger negotiating position when looking for trade deal with other countries, with the end result that they all become wealthier than they would have done if they were on their own.... Wink

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 16:25

It's a concept that seems to have been forgotten. The idea that increasing the health of the workers actually helps the owners.

The Cadburys and Rowntrees and MacIntoshes were pioneers. The soon-to-be-gone Bournville village is a testament to it.

Also the Krupps in Germany.

That said, I did have an interview a while back for EDS (Ross Perots old outfit). I've never heard of their approach to employee healthcare, but I was told that rather than piss around with insurance, EDS covered it's employees and their families outright. ("Just send us the bill" the guy said.) "After all," the manager said "we can't expect our employees to give their best if they are worried about their families".

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2018 16:27

The budget has been announced for 29th October - a month early - because of fears of back bench Brexit related grumblings and threats of rebellon.

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DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 16:29

The budget has been announced for 29th October - a month early - because of fears of back bench Brexit related grumblings and threats of rebellon.

Thus kiboshing any election this side of Xmas. In theory.

Unless it's a double bluff. After all, an election declared - say week after next - simply means no budget on 29/10/2018.

Mrsr8 · 26/09/2018 16:37

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Mrsr8 · 26/09/2018 16:39

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DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 16:46

www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/theresa-mays-bad-faith/

Theresa May’s Bad Faith

The Salzburg debacle was a low point of British diplomacy, because neither Number 10 nor the Brexit ministers paid any attention to the information being provided by Britain’s Embassies, which was that there is fizzing resentment in major capitals at what is viewed as Theresa May’s rank bad faith.

Good faith is an intangible, but it is the most important asset you can have in diplomatic negotiations, and building up trust is the most important skill in international relations. The EU remains genuinely concerned for the future of Ireland, which unlike the UK is a continuing member.

In December, after hard talks, the UK signed up to the Joint Report as the basis for negotiation. This contained the famous “backstop” on North/South Ireland relations. It is worth looking on what the text of the “backstop” actually says.

49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom’s intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

What May is now saying is that it is impossible for Northern Ireland to maintain alignment with the rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union, when as per her Chequers plan the rest of the UK will not maintain that alignment. This would involve a border in the Irish Sea which, she repeatedly declaims, “no British government could accept”.

The problem is, she has already accepted it. There is no possible meaning of last December’s backstop agreement which does not involve profoundly different customs and regulatory rules for Northern Ireland, unless the UK remains part of the single market, which May has rejected. To state now that such difference for Northern Ireland is unacceptable for reasons of unionist fundamentalism, is too late. You signed up to it last December.

The humiliation of Salzburg occurred because there was never chance of any sympathy from EU member states for an attempt to dishonour the agreement of nine months ago. There is no way out of that conundrum. The government has belatedly remembered the existence of the FCO as a potential tool in international relations, and ambassadors in our Embassies in EU countries are currently staring in bafflement at dense and complex instructions urging them to convince their hosts that black is white.

I have refrained from comment on the Brexit negotiations, but among the rafts of mainstream media coverage, I have not seen this issue of May’s bad faith given the prominence it deserves. Whatever your stance on Brexit, conducting negotiations in this manner – the cliche of perfidious is in fact the best description – is a ludicrously ineffective way to behave. On the most profound political, economic and social transformation the UK has embarked on in decades, the Tory government is an utter shambles.

I personally changed my rose-tinted view of the EU after seeing its leaders line-up to applaud the Francoist paramilitary forces for clubbing grandmothers over the head for having the temerity to try to vote in Catalonia. My interest in Third Pillar cooperation ended there. But leaving the customs union appears to me a ridiculous act of self harm.

1tisILeClerc · 26/09/2018 16:59

Well done Mrsr8!

Whatthefoxgoingon · 26/09/2018 17:10

Oh well done Mrs8!

TheTrapDoor · 26/09/2018 17:15

Bravo Mrs 👍

DGRossetti · 26/09/2018 17:16

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-45656964/how-bad-could-things-get-over-brexit-prime-minister

Theresa May has been asked "how bad could things get" if Brexit goes wrong during a visit to the United States.

Speaking at a Bloomberg event in New York, the chief executive of investment firm Blackstone, Steve Schwarzman, said he and other Wall Street figures "outside the UK system" were worried about how things might "go off" in the event of the talks breaking down.

In response, the prime minister said there was "uncertainty" over the outcome but she believed a good deal was in both sides' interests.

"I absolutely appreciate and understand the point you're making about as you're making decisions and looking ahead to what the future holds and at the moment, there is that uncertainty about what the future will hold in terms of Brexit."

1tisILeClerc · 26/09/2018 17:18

{ believed a good deal was in both sides' interests.}
I believe if I go out in the rain I will get wet. It says nothing!

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