Not the Brexit Arms again

[Bearbehind]

I'm guessing surfer won't start another thread as the questions were getting a bit difficult on the last one. 😂

Thought this was worthy of discussion though

So it turns out those pesky EU immigrants actually contribute more than the average UK citizen.

Who knew 🤔

There are I think 13 electricity 'interconnectors'PLANNED to help the UK keep up with demand in the future but I think only 3 are currently operational, cable laying is underway on several more.
The UK Gov SHOULD have been investing in new power stations years ago but hasn't done. The new Hinkley Nuclear is a French /Chinese consortium, which may be on hold now.
It is all very well waffling on about 'electric cars' of the future, but the electricity still has to be produced SOMEWHERE and the UK can't make enough now, let alone if electric cars become popular.

Louise could you provide just one example for the points you listed

I will still be denied choices that I should be able to make as a consumer.

What choices are you currently denied?

I will still be paying out more than is necessary from my income for a whole host of things because European Union laws and rules make them artificially expensive.

What is more expensive because of EU regulations that we'd abolished if we could?

the electricity that the UK buys from France may get switched off

Wow! the last part of that all sounds rather threatening from our European friends and neighbours!

It’s the natural consequence of leaving the EU’s internal energy market. You know, one of the things that the Leave campaign pointed out in its “Leave means Leave” rhetoric.

@bearbehind, gladly

choices which I now cannot make include, whether to purchase particular specifications of washing machines, vacuum cleaners and light bulbs - that's 3.

Things that are more expensive include all of the above and, food, because of CAP payments artificially inflating prices and restrictions on competitor produce.

VAT rates at min 5% and literally anything to which standard VAT applies, which much be at a minimum of 15%. I am well aware that HMG currently sets the standard rate higher than that but post Brexit we should hopefully be allowed to set VAT rates at whatever we choose them to be.

And what in actual cold hard Gov't announced fact, Louise, is there to support your hope that the UK Gov't will lower VAT rates? And if they don't, and we are subject to WTO standard tariffs - not having an agreed schedule of our own, just how much cheaper will food be, or not?

Louise

This lot have convinced themselves that the eu is the very height of human endeavour: without fault and a veritable utopia.

Without the eu the world will cease to turn, birds will fall from the sky and we will be cast adrift from the world of polite society and free mobile phone roaming charges.

So you won’t get any sense, just slogans and repeated cries of angst from some rather tedious posters who are, presumably, always found in the kitchen at parties...

Many voters probably tried to vote on the basis of how they imagined the economy would evolve over time but realised that this is pure guesswork. Even the Bank of England's inflation forecasts have always cited "a range of outcomes" because the outcomes are highly sensitive to unknown elements, and that was even before Brexit happened. No-one can know whether things will be cheaper over time because we don't know how much Europe will sink into recession, reduce it's share of global economic trade, how much Italy will cost, how we'll be able to grow our links with developing markets to compensate, other distant horizon events, and so on, endlessly.
Against the backdrop of an unknown future, anecdotal evidence of something that is already worse doesn't hold a lot of sway because the future hasn't played out yet.

That's why you are never going to get answers to why Leavers voted leave. They accepted they didn't know the future and opted for an ideology instead. I wouldn't call this unicorn thinking because I think it's a valid choice. Not the one I made, but that's democracy for you.

vacuum cleaners

High wattage (and electricity consumption) does not equate to suction ability. In fact the EU regulations required better performance and durability as well as less energy consumption and noise.

choices which I now cannot make include, whether to purchase particular specifications of washing machines, vacuum cleaners and light bulbs - that's 3.

Do you honestly believe any of those things are going to be developed for the UK market only? There won't be any more choice because it's not cost effective to have UK products which differ from EU ones.

It's exactly this kind of idealogy that has caused the problem here - you might not like the rules but leaving the EU isn't going to suddenly change what is available to you.

Things that are more expensive include all of the above and, food, because of CAP payments artificially inflating prices and restrictions on competitor produce.

As above for the products above. WRT food, what about the tariffs and lack of availability due to import restrictions and delays?

You haven't really thought this through have you? 🤔

{always found in the kitchen at parties...}
That's where the best parties are! Jonah Lewie (spelling?).
The EU is not the 'best there is' BUT with the way the world actually works, it is a damn sight better than attempting to 'go it alone'.
You need to factor in that in being a world dominating power often in very unpleasant ways 150 years ago it has MASSIVELY pissed off , nearly half the world so now comes 'payback time'.

@JWIM. No political party can currently even propose (honestly) to the electorate that, should they be elected, standard rate VAT will fall below 15% because European Union law would prevent them from enacting any such policy.

My hope is that by the time of the next election that barrier will have been removed. As to whether a future government will do this? I don't know but currently the choice is not available and post Brexit it will be

On food prices

www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Article/2018/01/03/Firms-face-food-tariffs-if-Brexit-ends-up-on-WTO-terms

This would suggest that WTO terms only would see food prices increase, but that is predicated on their being "no deal" and i don't believe there will be "no deal." Tariff liberalisation should see prices fall.

I hear the 48/52 result has probably turned into a 52/48 now. After all this arguing for two years, only a meagre 4% shift. Doesn't that tell us that if the consensus is right, and it's likely to be, then it doesn't really matter much if we stay or go?

@Bearbehind. I'm afraid i have

I realise that the bar in the "Not the Brexit Arms" is well populated with Remain voters, but engaging with people who think differently is usually a positive in my experience

Doesn't that tell us that if the consensus is right, and it's likely to be, then it doesn't really matter much if we stay or go?

I do find many of your comments quite odd for a Remainer megan

Of course it matters if we stay or go.

The latter will screw the economy on account of the fact no one has any idea how to make it work.

So Louise we are back to a forecast based on hoping it will be better out of the EU but forecasts that it will be worse are nonsense/false/project fear - your choice. What makes 'project hope' any more likely than 'project fear'?

louise, if you've thought it through could you explain, using your examples, how you think you will have access to more choices of vacuums or light bulbs and why they will be cheaper once we leave the EU?

How is it actually going to work in practice?

Who is going to offer you these choices?

How, when they aren't avaialble now, will they be cheaper than mass produced options suitable for 500 million people?

Not the one I made, but that's democracy for you

No its not, its dictatorial because its irreversible!

Its not like a referendum on PR, Abolition of the Monarchy or Dog licences, these "new" ways of doing things could be undone if they didn't work out, if Brexit is disaster, there is no way back, generations are stuck with it.
27 or more countries would need to agree and we 'd be subject to the usual conditions.

The UK populace still hasn't woken up to what a 'no deal' will really look like. Bear in mind the most significant and damaging 'technical notices' to be issued by the UK government haven't been released yet.
The concept of 'no flying' was only appearing in the tabloids in the last week. In a couple of days time the significance of no flights, no ferries and no Eurostar might just 'click' in a few more heads.
@Louise. Reducing VAT by a few percent does not actually achieve much in the grand scheme of things. It might look good but the MAJOR problem is that the government, the sovereign government that leavers have already had for hundreds of years chose NOT to spend taxes wisely for the benefit of all.

Being irreversible doesn't make it undemocratic.

@Louise

Even if your correct, why would anyone drop prices for say coffee, when they already know we are wiling to pay £10 a kilo, they d just drop 10%?

Business is about profits, the bigger the better.

Your being naive

@LouiseCollins28

So you want Brexit so you can buy consumer goods with lower safety and environmental standards? I assume you can't wait for chlorinated chicken as well. Still, I might not agree with your choices but at least you have something you might possibly get out of brexit, slightly aghast at the price you're willing to pay for this chance.

I met a farmer ages ago who voted Leave because he wanted to get rid of his hedgerows and put stock fencing instead. He thought the hedgerows were a pain to maintain and he just wanted rid. He knew that after Brexit he still might not be allowed to get rid but he thought at least he had a better chance and could lobby more powerfully for this change outside the EU. He is just about the only person I've heard who had a reason for voting Brexit not based on falsehoods. You wanting to strip away safety and environmental standards is the same, it might not happen, but you do have more chance. The price for this though.... I can't understand how anybody would be willing to pay that.

What is more expensive because of EU regulations that we'd abolished if we could?

Please let's have an example of an EU regulation that we voted against.
It should be relatively easy, quite a few we proposed ourselves and the majority of others we voted for.

Why are you talking about VAT Louise - it's an EU tax. We could scrap it altogether, although I am 100% sure that some sort of purchase tax would be put in its place.

VAT replaced purchase tax - which averaged 25% just before 1973. Since VAT is the third largest income stream to HMG I can’t imagine there will be a wholesale reduction in rates on leaving the EU.

Heavens, lots of messages I’m tagged in.
Don’t think I can respond to all of these individually but a few points in answer to the ones I’ve seen.

• I have not forecast anything.
• I have never used (and greatly dislike) the phrase “project fear.” I think we ought to listen carefully to what we are being told and strike a good deal.
• I said we could make choices we cannot currently make
• I gave examples of things that could be cheaper to buy after we leave
• If through loss/reduction of VAT you reduce the proportion of purchase price of an item attributable to tax by up to 15% then it seems reasonable to me to expect it will be cheaper to buy
• I don’t give a stuff about chlorinated chicken. UK animal welfare standards are higher than the the EUs in many areas. I see no reason why this would not continue.
• Lastly, i never said that a post Brexit UK government would drop VAT below 15%. I said they could. Predicting the probability of this outcome after we leave, (when, until we leave, the known probability of this outcome is 0) is pointless, so I won’t be doing it.

Thanks all