Not the Brexit Arms again

[Bearbehind]

I'm guessing surfer won't start another thread as the questions were getting a bit difficult on the last one. 😂

Thought this was worthy of discussion though

So it turns out those pesky EU immigrants actually contribute more than the average UK citizen.

Who knew 🤔

So you are happy for it all to go to hell in a hand cart, just in case the EU decides to vote things through ( which would include the UK voting if still a member) which you personally don't agree with, at some undetermined point in the future ?

I do not have blind faith in the EU, I just have no faith in the current UK government.

@surferjet - hilarious that you think posters on here all live outside UK. You are in a bubble and you should switch on your critical thinking button.

And what surfer has articulated is the problem. You can't argue with the myth of the EU. If we don't leave we can't argue it was a stupid idea because it wasn't tested. The only thing that could possibly shake sentiments like that is if the U.K. plunges directly into a deep and lasting recession and even then it will be the faults of remainers who didn't 'get behind' Brexit.

Whatever happens the devoted core will spread and develop the Brexit myth, like Shangri la or the Loch Ness monster it will remain festering in British politics for years.

You haven't the foggiest where people live. People will know that I live in Oxfordshire because I have said so a number of times. As for 'lacking vision' pray tell me what vision is encompassed in 'Brexit means Brexit'?

We have heard Fox and Davis go on about easy deals, but after more than two years there should be something concrete. Redwood tells people that he's moved money out of the UK. Rees-Mogg moves business to Dublin - if either of them had a positive vision for the UK why would they do so?

What's your vision surferjet? Come on after two years you should be brimming with ideas. Something more than "we're leaving", and a few jibes at Remainers. So far all we have heard is that your son wants to travel, and getting visas will be no bother to him, even though as an EU member he might not have needed them.

ATM we ve a veto on rules we don't like, voting to remain would mean we could always have another referendum in 10years if the EU changed into some sort of USSR.

Leaving, however is certainly for a couple of decades and before we even have left, Hammond is planning tax rises and further borrowing.

As too "We ve all lived abroad" yes and that perhaps gives us a wider outlook than someone who has not?

Do agree we are all talking amongst ourselves.....for the moment.

but we’re leaving & that’s it

That's your stock phrase surfer but you and the rest of the Leavers still have absolutely no idea what it will look like.

Right now it's by no means certain because we have know idea how to make it possible in practice.

You keeping on repeating your assertion that we're leaving doesn't mean it can actually happen.

We might well leave, but it won't be "that's it."
It will be 'how on earth do we import medicines?"
"How do we import/grow sufficient food?"
"With the decline in the £, how safe is my income? My job." Just consider how the folks working at BMW are feeling right now. Not jumping about with joy, if the ones I know are typical.

The business 'mentality' of the Japanese in particular is quite different to the 'west' and 'buggering about' does not fit in any of their plans.
If they decide they are out, they are out. Their government and senior business leaders will not put up with uncertainty for much longer, that is assuming they haven't already decided to go.
The Japanese already produce many cars, and a whole raft of other things, in the EU so 'walking away' would be an inconvenience, or even an opportunity as some of the poorer countries within the EU bid for new factories. Robotic assembly has 'de skilled' many aspects so for them to find and train a new workforce is not difficult.
Once you get beyond 'sentimentality' or particular 'brands' the UK is not particularly special, and only because the Customs Union and the Single Market does it make the UK viable for many industries.
China is part way through building new streamlined 'trade routes' across Europe and elsewhere. Cars built in Europe either now, or in the very near future, can be loaded up and delivered to Beijing.

Surferjet does have a point. There are a lot of very weird ideas put forward on this board (tunnel building, anyone?) and people really do come across as determined to undermine Brexit, big up the EU, etc. There is also a lot of aggression/bad language (and overuse of the word "unicorn"). The fact is, the Leave campaign won, it's going to happen somehow, and Leavers now have better things to do with their time than come here to get flak for exercising their democratic right to vote as they chose. Maybe that will change in the future as jasjas implies.

Unfortunately Brexit NEEDS undermining when you stand back and take a view of the whole world rather than what is happening in your own street, town or county. Global business and communication has happened and in many respects even country politics is overshadowed by 'big business', and it won't go away simply by closing your eyes.
The Utopia that Mrs May and some others are trying to portray simply can't happen any more on this planet. 150 years ago, had British/UK government been more smart and had an ongoing plan to improve the lives of all it's subjects wherever they were physically in the world, things could have been a lot different. Negotiating and participating in a more open way with others, rather than competing in a 'fight'.
The UK can't now 'demand' more copper from Zimbabwe, as it did when it was Rhodesia, and the same goes for everything else in terms of mineral supplies that would be necessary for the new 'industrial powerhouse' that has been bandied about.
Holland is quite a small country. It took the view centuries ago that it NEEDS to trade so as a first step (for their children) they learn at least 3 languages so at least they can communicate with others.
The UK WAS in with one of the major 'winning teams' (the EU) who command around 25% of the worlds economy but is now heading for isolation. A complete travesty.

The fact is the Leave campaign closely won an advisory referendum on a false prospectus. How many people would really have voted for Leave if they had been told that this was irrevocable for at least a generation. Furthermore, no there were no promises of money for the NHS, and instead they might have to take a gamble on losing it altogether?
Hammond was correct when he said that no one voted to be poorer.
Vote Leave for Poverty would not have been a winning slogan.

I am heartily sick of being told that the Referendum was democracy. General Elections are not advisory, but we build in time limits on how long Parliament can sit.

As for Leavers having better things to do with their time - I am still waiting for more than slogans. What are they doing to encourage inward investment, what businesses are they starting up?

Thing is Peregrina - now we all know what we know, where are all the leavers demanding a 2nd referendum or that we forget brexit altogether?
As you keep saying, it’s leavers /poorer people who will suffer the most, why aren’t they demonstrating about being lied to?

It’s just not happening is it.
Maybe because leavers think, despite everything, that we’re still better off out of the EU.

It's one thing to wish it had never happened, but quite another to be realistic about where we now are. A second referendum (or withdrawal of A 50 due to pending cliff edge) are highly unlikely, and would we really want to be taken back now and would they want us? I suspect the answer is no, the bridges are already burned, on both sides. We'd be the mistrusted colleague sowing seeds of discontent, and the UK would feel imprisoned because they couldn't exit. Even plenty of original remainers now accept that we've come so far that we are now irrevocably out.

There is an almost religious anger about this because so much of it on both sides is faith rather than fact-based, none of us can read the future.
But realistically, undermining Brexit isn't helping anyone now, unless we can actually come up with a plan to stop it and make re-entry workable.

Maybe because leavers think...

Are you sure about that? i mean your following remark despite everything implies they ve not given this much thought at all.

The noises from the car industry should make everyone sit up and consider "is this really the best move the UK can make?" a million hi skilled jobs are at stake.

That it doesn't, is why v important decisions need to be taken by Government, we dont possess the faculties to see the bigger longer term picture, unlike Thatcher who got Nissan here in 1986 because we had access to the European market and she paid them...with North Sea oil money, which is dryng up now.

We've been asking for 2 1/4 years now. One or two Leavers say things like, we could open up immigration to the rest of the world. And we think, yes we could, but we could have done that anyway. We didn't, instead we have treated one particular group of British citizens namely the Windrush generation pretty shabbily, and other would be entrants to the country have taken note.

We could trade with [whatever country]. Well why don't we? Germany manages to.

If May crashes out, which she is just likely to do by accident as anything, no one will have any choice but to accept it.

@frumpety, to try and supply an answer about what will be practically affected in my daily life (as someone who voted to leave) by Leave not happening…. the answer on the surface would be not very much I should think!

I’d still be paying a proportion of my income via taxation to an institution I don’t support but that has been the case for many years and lots of people have to pay taxes to fund something they don’t like.

If I take you literally and I did “wake up one morning” and hear that the government had cancelled Brexit, having asked for the electorate's votes in 2017 on the basis that they would enact it, I think there would be a major constitutional crisis.

However, I would still have to go to work, still need to buy food still need to do all the normal things which would be largely unaffected.

Thing is though, I work to have a better life, not to keep things as they are: So if Brexit doesn’t happen, for example,

I will still be denied choices that I should be able to make as a consumer.

I will still be paying out more than is necessary from my income for a whole host of things because European Union laws and rules make them artificially expensive.

I will consequently have less of my own money to save/spend as I want to.

No feelings there, but i'm not sure you should dismiss them so easily anyhow.

why aren’t they (leavers) demonstrating about being lied to?

I don't know, that puzzles me too. They were promised all this stuff that's now clearly off the table, they were promised it would be easy with no downside, why aren't people angry about the lies? I get that given the age profiles of Leave voters they might not be worried about job loses.

@LouiseCollins28

Do you really think you'll have more money in your pocket because of Brexit?

why aren’t they (leavers) demonstrating about being lied to?

I think in part because people don't expect to be told the truth anymore so the lies are irrelevant to the ideological choice they had to make.

@KenDodd Well, i'll still be buying the same/similar things before and afterwards and they'll likely be less expensive after than they were before (though i'd guess not for while). So, assuming my income remained the same, yes i should keep more of my own money.

I didn't say i'd have more in my pocket on "Day 1", nor indeed on any one day but over a lifetime, yes I'd expect to.

Sadly, dropping out of the EU trade deals will result in around 10% hike in prices simply because of the tariff changes.
There will be further increases to 'compensate' for the increased cost of paperwork and customs checking.
The electricity companies have already announced price hikes I think but even if not, the electricity that the UK buys from France may get switched off, and that is approaching 10% of electricity used in the UK and being end of March it is still rather cool and dark in the UK.
People talk about the German car industry (and the UK manufacturing of cars for them) but the car manufacturing sector of Germany's production is 'small change' compared to their other activities. Although they don't want to, they could shut UK plants down at the click of a finger.

@1tislLeClerc

Wow! the last part of that all sounds rather threatening from our European friends and neighbours!

I think Mr Burns tried to do that in "The Simpsons"

Look on the plus side. If UK manufacturing shuts down (like the car manufacturers), then the demand for electricity will go down.

Therefore the UK might be able to cope without the French interconnect, without having to resort to brown outs

Louise it is not EU sovereign states that are now talking about business moving from the UK to the EU (car industry) it is business. As for electricity supply - we may continue to have EU sourced power but on 3rd country terms not EU member state terms - surely that is what leavers voted for - to take back control ie the UK chooses where to source national energy supplies where we have a shortfall in the UK production of energy?

{Wow! the last part of that all sounds rather threatening from our European friends and neighbours! }
Not threatening, just business and the fact that legal agreements have to be remade.
At the moment if the UK needs the electricity (as it is still winter time so likely) it is entitled to SHARE with France. Once the UK becomes a 3rd country, IF France has some spare, the UK can buy it. The difference is subtle but real.

Sadly the PM of the UK prefers to do the chicken dance at conference rather than sitting around a table and actually doing some dealing to get this mess sorted out.