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Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Season

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2018 10:44

Party Conference Season has officially started. What happens could be utterly crucial for Brexit since Brexit isn't about the EU its about internal party divisions and the politics of personality.

Starting off in the Yellow Corner
The Lib Dems proposals for associate membership and a leader outside the HoC. We know that they support exit from Brexit but what is striking is the shake up of the party seems to be the only thing drawing attention and there is a distinct lack of talk of anything else - including Brexit. Yet there are hints of a tiny shift back to the LDs as Labour and the Conservatives implode despite the LDs having lost all direction. If they can find one then maybe they can throw spanners into the works further down the line.

Moving over to the Red Corner in Liverpool
The Labour Party strife and squabbling gets to be airred in full view in Liverpool; the ongoing anti-semitism row which seems to have no end in sight, the rising issues over women's rights, various Labour MPs being no confidenced in an attempt to deselect them and Brexit policy or more correctly lack of Brexit policy. Thornberry has stated that Labour will vote against any deal May puts forward seemingly in order to trigger another GE. This has been denied as being official policy, but she's a front bencher who hasn't been slapped down for disobedience by Corbyn. There are lots of rumours flying around about the party leadership being under pressure to change direction on Brexit so her comments might be push back against that. Word is that various trade unions and perhaps even Momentum are looking to push for another referendum and a much more pro-remain or explicit EEA policy.

And then there's the Blues...
Where to start with them??

Talk has changed from not whether there will be a leadership challenge to open and widespread discussion from moderate party loyals about when there will be one.

Its been said that a challenge isn't expected at conference nor straight after; the feeling is May will be left to sort out the withdrawal backstop agreement in October at least before being rudely dumped. But don't count on it. Especially in the party of backstabbers.

There's been lots of movement around Johnson too. Former close advisors say he's on self destruct but will still probably be PM. There's the break up of his marriage. There's the complete failure of his time in the foreign office where its hard to see what he actually did apart from upset people. There's his outrageous comments which seem in the style of Steve Bannon. There's talk of him suddenly apparently showing Brexit regret. For me there is one question, which seems very similar to Brexit itself: Boris Johnson has spent so much time and effort into the game of becoming PM, what thought has he given to what he actually does when he has achieved it? Its almost as if there is no plan for that...

Then theres the ERG, with their alternative Brexit White Paper which includes the magic Irish 'Not a Border but Looks Just Like a Border' Solution. Its supported by just about every Tory MP you'd put in a horror cabinet of heartless cold out of touch bastards, who would drive 20 miles out of their way rather than pass through a council estate. But even their stance seems to be softening; talk of aligning NI closely with EU - particularly with agrifoods seems to be moving away from a position compatible with a US trade deal.

And finally the original Tory Rebels, who like everyone else are firmly sticking their fingers up at May's Chequers Deal. Several have said they would support a People's Vote if May doesn't get her head out of her arse and admit the idea is a dead duck.

Look out for more 'non-Tory' style policy plans coming out over the next couple of weeks, like the talk of renationalising the railways.

So what does this mean for Brexit?
Well nothing and everything.

None of this changes the EU position. None of this changes the realities of the negogition process and the 29th March deadline.

It just is in some ways the final party show downs before decisions start HAVING to be made. Party fractures are going to be tested to their limits and the chances of it getting nasty, with the stakes being so high, are high.

I wouldn't like to call ANYTHING unless the conclusion of the conferences.

Its something we don't need as a country. Waiting for this lot to get their shit together has doomed the country.

The Recession is coming. It can not be stopped now. Regardless of what happens over Brexit. Its too late. We can only mitigate the scale of it.

This is the part just before the 2008 crash when people were saying what was about to happen, but everyone ignored. The accepted narrative now is that 'no one could have predicted the crash'. Except they could and they did. Its just that no one wanted to listen.

This is the part just before Iraq where thousands protested and were not listened to, because a politician had it in his head that it was the best option, but he had no real plan for what happened next.

This is the part when people said PFI was a spectactularly bad idea. But it kept being used over and over and over again by all political parties because it was politically easier in the short term.

Enjoy this Christmas.

Next year is going to be a rough old ride for a lot of people.

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Arborea · 16/09/2018 23:22

Just delurking to join the ranks of DLS and Chalet School fans. Actually, almost anything vintage-y and crime fiction related...

Suggestion on R4 in the past hour that the EU might be reconsidering its position on the N Irish backstop: is this right, and if so how would it work?

SwedishEdith · 16/09/2018 23:28

Charlie Williams

SwedishEdith · 16/09/2018 23:30

twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1041439965593391104

Here's some discussion on NI border. Some suggesting it's back to Irish Sea border.

Somerville · 16/09/2018 23:40

There have been vague fears in Ireland that the rest of the EU could shaft them at some stage and relent over backstop, Arborea, and certainly earlier in the year Britain was secretly lobbying continental EU to do so. It seemed to go nowhere and hopefully never will. I think it’s more likely that the EU act like they’re relenting a little to hedge a legal backstop with political language to try to sneak it past the DUP.

Somerville, have you more on this, we need to know
Sorry it’s Sun link woman but some bedtime watching for you Winkhere

Never have I seen so many Chalet School fans together on a non CS thread. Brexit is against everything the Chalet School (especially the peace league!) stood for so kind of makes sense. Smile

SwedishEdith · 16/09/2018 23:43

My grandfather was Irish migrant miner, one generation out for a passport sadly.

An Irish grandparent qualifies for applying for an Irish passport.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2018 23:49

The UK media & some politicians keep claiming breakthroughs like this,
always that the EU is giving in because of France (wine) or Germany (cars)
but never quoting a named EU source on the team that is actually negotiating.

So far, it's all been wishful thinking & noise
The Times, see snapshot, claims that Barnier is working on a plan for goods vehicles to use technology away from the border.
He may have decided to work on it, to show the EU heads of govt what is possible - and they may agree / reject

The Irish Times claims the backstop will have to be as in the draft WA

  • so the technology checks will be in the Irish Sea - but that there will be a lot of fancy words to cover this up

The RoI would have to be satisfied with the backstop terms, because the whole EU (except maybe Poland & Hungary) remain solidly behind the RoI

and the EU would have to be satisfied that it doesn't risk the Single Market

Most likely, this is just May's supporters are bigging her up before the Tory Conference
and the EU may well be content to go along with this, to keep her in office - no time to start with a new PM

I'll believe a breakthrough only if Barnier announces it
(but let's keep fingers crossed)

Westministenders: Conference Season
BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2018 23:52

For more interesting snapshots, Richard Maddon for MrsR Wink and anyone (like me) who hasn't seen him on the Idiot Tube

Westministenders: Conference Season
Westministenders: Conference Season
BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2018 23:54

Ah, thanks, swedish now I remember his name

prettybird · 16/09/2018 23:55

I'm another Chalet School fan Grin

I used to fantasise about going to boarding school. Strangely enough, my parents, who'd both gone to boarding school (my dad, from necessity, for the whole of his school life Shock, my mum just for short periods as her dad was quite peripatetic), were never equally keen Wink

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 17/09/2018 00:39

woman you qualify for an Irish passport if you have an Irish grandparent. (sorry may have missed the context of your comment - am having to skim read everything atm!)

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 17/09/2018 00:40

Sorry! hadn’t refreshed the page and I now see Swedishedith has already posted re passport!

mathanxiety · 17/09/2018 02:44

Once restored the plane will embark on an around the world flight in summer 2019
[Liam Fox]

If a Spitfire flies around the world and nobody cares, does it make a sound?

The more I read, the more I am convinced that there are allegedly serious men and women in this government who believe in fairies.

Were they fed nothing but a diet of Enid Blyton and tales of British pluck and derring do in their childhoods?

  • My dad flew Spitfires in the RAF and was a great admirer of them. He also admired the Yakovlev Yak-3 and those who flew them, the Focke-Wulf FW-190 and the American P-51 Mustang. But he was thrilled by Concorde and all things supersonic... My point being that if someone who actually flew the plane could appreciate that time and technology had moved on, then so should Liam Fox.
Mrsr8 · 17/09/2018 05:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mrsr8 · 17/09/2018 06:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 17/09/2018 06:36

This short article from the Irish Times explains why people in the ROI might not be in favour of a united Ireland
You have to consider the source when evaluating this. The IT has never been what you might call hot on Irish unity, or even Irish independence, going way back.

Quite early in the Brexit debacle, at the request of the Irish government, the EU guaranteed that NI could rejoin as part of Ireland if reunification happened.

It's not blithe or feckless or in any way wild eyed to suggest that a reunited Ireland will happen as a result of Brexit. This possibility has already been considered at government level and in Brussels, and any British ministers or parties or NI pols or parties who are shaking their heads in disbelief should stop that and get real.

It would be irresponsible to contemplate the eventuality without casting around for ways to smooth the integration of NI into some political entity that includes Ireland, but to suggest that the issues of different education systems and the existence of the NHS are insurmountable is altogether too negative.

Education could be integrated in phases, with each intake cohort gradually undertaking the Junior Cert and leaving Cert curricula. GCSE is already fairly closely aligned in terms of number of subjects, with the Junior Cert. Irish language could become optional for all, or Ulster Scots/Ullans could become part of the curriculum (perhaps optional). Wrt healthcare - I don't see an extension of the NHS or anything like it because it would be expensive. I can see NI's system becoming aligned to that of Ireland gradually - with an economic downturn in the island as a whole it's likely there would be more people entitled to the medical card anyway, at least initially.

There is a lot of cross border trade and links in agriculture (trade plus regulation) and food processing, and that will be the ultimate driver of reunification. NI agribusiness will take a huge hit when Brexit kicks in and no amount of loyalist rhetoric will make up for the loss of income, livelihood and even family farms that looms ahead. Unionists are not stupid, and neither are the captains of Irish industry, particularly the ag/ food processing sectors.

A reunited Ireland could have a federal structure, or it could be a unitary state - there is no need to cling to current structures or institutions if they seem set to get in the way of harmonious and efficient integration and productive relationships in the future, or if they seem set to have a negative effect on democratic representation.

Unionists of all stripes might find themselves beneficiaries of PR extended island-wide. As far as culture goes, the DUP might be pleasantly surprised to find common ground with conservatives who are currently politically homeless in Ireland, and progressive parties might find they appeal in certain demographics in NI. A new progressive/conservative paradigm could emerge.

woman11017 · 17/09/2018 07:07

Thank you all, sorry, the grandfather was a Russian Jew, the great grandfather was Irish. Sad but thank you so much. How I'd love one!
Yep Charlie Williams. Smile

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 07:42

I look just like Richard Madden.
I can also peel potatoes.
Only one of these statements is true sadly.

At this stage all possibilities should be thrown into the 'mix'. Granted many will hit the bin quickly but automatically throwing out any plan is folly.

Mrsr8 · 17/09/2018 08:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bellinisurge · 17/09/2018 08:56

@woman11017 - same ish kind of ethnic mix as me. As a kid, I used to play "which football teams can I play for?". Never thought I'd need it in real life.

prettybird · 17/09/2018 09:07

BBC Breakfast has been doing (in conjunction with 5Live) a feature on Brexit with interviews with various business people and a couple of families (one Leave, one Remain).

The ignorance and misconceptions were astounding Shock - but unfortunately (for us on this thread) not that surprising.

One lady said that we needed to leave the EU so that we could jail people according to our own laws and not have them overturned (that's the EHCR you numpty - not the EU Hmm) Confused

Another said that we would then be able to export more to other countries. There is nothing stopping you now - look at how much Germany exports Angry

To be fair(ish) on the BBC, they did also have a few proper experts on who were pointing out some of the difficulties.

Peregrina · 17/09/2018 09:12

I think if May had come up with her Chequer's 'plan' from the outset, it could have been seen as a starting point. Now, with so much already ruled out, it's too little, too late. Still, it gives the Tories something to argue over.

I was just reading about the privatisation of the railways under Major - equally shambolic, with plans no more than an idea on the back of an old envelope. An interesting observation is that the Labour party knew they were on course to win the next election, so helped to speed the privatisation through Major's Government, knowing that it would be unpopular, but they would be able to blame the Tories. This is so much like Labour and Brexit now. They know it's going to be a mess, so sit tight and let the Tories get the flak.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 09:15

If there was a will for a united Ireland, I know one country in the EU that would be able - and willing - to provide practical & financial aid.

Germany. Who (some forget, and some never knew Sad) underwent their own little reunion in 1991.

woman11017 · 17/09/2018 09:28

bellini Smile Derry Girls in London event this week:
www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/derry-girls-against-borders-london-tickets-50259467420

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 17/09/2018 09:32

prettybird. DH and I watched that with our heads in our hands. The leave voter’s reason for not being worried - ‘UK is the envy of the world!’ ‘Come in Britain, you’ve forgotten how to be optimistic!’ ‘We can grow our own crops’ - just about stopped short of mentioning the unicorns...

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2018 09:37

Another mostly ignored issue raising its ugly head ?

Spain reportedly telling Barnier that they want a "Gibraltar chapter" in the WA:

https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/16/actualidad/1537126159_632155.html

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