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Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Season

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2018 10:44

Party Conference Season has officially started. What happens could be utterly crucial for Brexit since Brexit isn't about the EU its about internal party divisions and the politics of personality.

Starting off in the Yellow Corner
The Lib Dems proposals for associate membership and a leader outside the HoC. We know that they support exit from Brexit but what is striking is the shake up of the party seems to be the only thing drawing attention and there is a distinct lack of talk of anything else - including Brexit. Yet there are hints of a tiny shift back to the LDs as Labour and the Conservatives implode despite the LDs having lost all direction. If they can find one then maybe they can throw spanners into the works further down the line.

Moving over to the Red Corner in Liverpool
The Labour Party strife and squabbling gets to be airred in full view in Liverpool; the ongoing anti-semitism row which seems to have no end in sight, the rising issues over women's rights, various Labour MPs being no confidenced in an attempt to deselect them and Brexit policy or more correctly lack of Brexit policy. Thornberry has stated that Labour will vote against any deal May puts forward seemingly in order to trigger another GE. This has been denied as being official policy, but she's a front bencher who hasn't been slapped down for disobedience by Corbyn. There are lots of rumours flying around about the party leadership being under pressure to change direction on Brexit so her comments might be push back against that. Word is that various trade unions and perhaps even Momentum are looking to push for another referendum and a much more pro-remain or explicit EEA policy.

And then there's the Blues...
Where to start with them??

Talk has changed from not whether there will be a leadership challenge to open and widespread discussion from moderate party loyals about when there will be one.

Its been said that a challenge isn't expected at conference nor straight after; the feeling is May will be left to sort out the withdrawal backstop agreement in October at least before being rudely dumped. But don't count on it. Especially in the party of backstabbers.

There's been lots of movement around Johnson too. Former close advisors say he's on self destruct but will still probably be PM. There's the break up of his marriage. There's the complete failure of his time in the foreign office where its hard to see what he actually did apart from upset people. There's his outrageous comments which seem in the style of Steve Bannon. There's talk of him suddenly apparently showing Brexit regret. For me there is one question, which seems very similar to Brexit itself: Boris Johnson has spent so much time and effort into the game of becoming PM, what thought has he given to what he actually does when he has achieved it? Its almost as if there is no plan for that...

Then theres the ERG, with their alternative Brexit White Paper which includes the magic Irish 'Not a Border but Looks Just Like a Border' Solution. Its supported by just about every Tory MP you'd put in a horror cabinet of heartless cold out of touch bastards, who would drive 20 miles out of their way rather than pass through a council estate. But even their stance seems to be softening; talk of aligning NI closely with EU - particularly with agrifoods seems to be moving away from a position compatible with a US trade deal.

And finally the original Tory Rebels, who like everyone else are firmly sticking their fingers up at May's Chequers Deal. Several have said they would support a People's Vote if May doesn't get her head out of her arse and admit the idea is a dead duck.

Look out for more 'non-Tory' style policy plans coming out over the next couple of weeks, like the talk of renationalising the railways.

So what does this mean for Brexit?
Well nothing and everything.

None of this changes the EU position. None of this changes the realities of the negogition process and the 29th March deadline.

It just is in some ways the final party show downs before decisions start HAVING to be made. Party fractures are going to be tested to their limits and the chances of it getting nasty, with the stakes being so high, are high.

I wouldn't like to call ANYTHING unless the conclusion of the conferences.

Its something we don't need as a country. Waiting for this lot to get their shit together has doomed the country.

The Recession is coming. It can not be stopped now. Regardless of what happens over Brexit. Its too late. We can only mitigate the scale of it.

This is the part just before the 2008 crash when people were saying what was about to happen, but everyone ignored. The accepted narrative now is that 'no one could have predicted the crash'. Except they could and they did. Its just that no one wanted to listen.

This is the part just before Iraq where thousands protested and were not listened to, because a politician had it in his head that it was the best option, but he had no real plan for what happened next.

This is the part when people said PFI was a spectactularly bad idea. But it kept being used over and over and over again by all political parties because it was politically easier in the short term.

Enjoy this Christmas.

Next year is going to be a rough old ride for a lot of people.

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Somerville · 17/09/2018 09:39

I’m cautiously pleased by that piece in the Times. I think the EU may have worked out how to hoist May with her own petard. “A technological solution to avoid a border? What a clever idea, Mme May! So instead of a border in the Irish Sea, let’s have a technological solution either side of the Irish Sea, non?”

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/09/2018 09:39

I may have sworn a lot at BBC breakfast this morning. I'm not even ashamed of it today.

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 17/09/2018 09:40

Another vintage crime fan here!

I caught the end of Nick Clegg talking on R4 this morning - it seemed as if he was using the Leavers’ rhetoric against them in saying things along the lines of “our great nation with its amazing history deserves better than Chequers or the abyss.” (Sorry not a verbatim quote!) I thought this was interesting.

Hasenstein · 17/09/2018 09:42

I remember Charlie Williams from my teens and being surprised to hear an accent like mine coming from what my dad called a "black chap". In those days, mine was a very white area, although there were increasing numbers arriving from the subcontinent, I can't recall any Afro-Caribbean people. I just thought hearing a black guy with a Yorkshire accent sounded hilarious, as it was so rare.

The only "foreigners" I knew were Polish and Ukrainian refugees who'd fled from Stalin's repressions. The first girl I ever kissed at about 7 or 8 years of age was called Lynn Kaminski. The Ukrainians were a very tight-knit community who had their own social club (referred to as the Ukelele Club), with regular dances and shindigs in native costume and Ukrainian music, which I thought most exotic.

Actually, just thinking about this made me realise that my dad, who's been dead for many years now, would definitely have voted leave, largely on racist grounds. He was born in the mid-1920s and still thought that the British empire was the natural order of things. Voted conservative, despite the fact that he was a poorly-paid worker in a depressed northern cotton town. He'd have loved Fox's Spitfire.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 09:43

I caught the end of Nick Clegg talking on R4 this morning - it seemed as if he was using the Leavers’ rhetoric against them in saying things along the lines of “our great nation with its amazing history deserves better than Chequers or the abyss.” (Sorry not a verbatim quote!) I thought this was interesting.

That vaguely aligns with the BoJo blurb from last week ... I wonder if it is an accident, or if there's a subtle trend to push back against the Brexiteers own bluster ?

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 17/09/2018 09:55

DGR - I think it may be deliberate. When I turned the radio on and heard “our great nation deserves better...” I immediately thought it was a Leaver speaking (and nearly switched off). But then it unfolded into “deserves better than these crappy options.” I wonder if Clegg’s thought process was that if people (Leavers) are known to believe premise A about deserving better, they may follow on to consider the rest of the argument more favourably?

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 10:20

It's one tactic Remainers can use without rebuff. Judo fans would approve of it's using the opponents strengths against them. In this case a deep aversion to facts, reading, and understanding. Just keep pushing the line that "Britain deserves much better than this deal". Doesn't need any facts, doesn't really matter what the deal is. And to counter it, you have to tacitly admit that maybe Britain does deserve this deal Hmm

There are greater minds than BoJo and Clegg at work here.

missclimpson · 17/09/2018 10:32

I only saw a bit of the BBC Breakfast item, which was Femi talking about young people worrying about the loss of jobs and opportunities and a woman who was talking about the cost of moving parliaments every year. What made me cross was that nobody pointed out that one is a gazillion more times more important than the other. There was no sense that the reasons why she voted leave are irrelevant in a tidal wave of disas

missclimpson · 17/09/2018 10:33

...ter from the consequences.
WTF is wrong with Mumsnet on my ipad? It shoots off the page every 5 seconds.

SusanWalker · 17/09/2018 10:49

I live in the mining heartland of Cornwall. Miners have always been itinerant. We have a sculpture celebrating the Cornish diaspora, there are pictures at the railway station showing the weekly exodus to South Africa, we are even twinned with a town in Mexico which had incoming Cornish migration back in the day.

Morally coal mining is wrong. We should be pushing ahead with the cancelled wave power project in Wales. That's the future, if we can only look forward instead of back.

I heard Bernard Jenkin on the today programme claiming he was never a leaver until Cameron called the referendum, with an inference it was all his fault. Oh and a no deal will only cause a small amount of disruption. Thought it was the land of milk and honey.......

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 10:53

I wonder if the Telegraph will run a story threatening the reputation of the IMF ?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45546785

The International Monetary Fund has warned that a "no-deal" Brexit on World Trade Organization terms would entail substantial costs for the UK economy.

(contd)

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 10:54

Morally coal mining is wrong. We should be pushing ahead with the cancelled wave power project in Wales. That's the future, if we can only look forward instead of back.

Not it's not. No amount of heavily subsidized renewables is ever going to power the world. Hence the need for nuclear.

SusanWalker · 17/09/2018 10:57

I also love the chalet school and agree that brexit is very much contrary to the ideals of the school. I sometimes think that it was reading the chalet school that lead me to doing french and german at uni.

Apparently there was a study that found that if you read Harry Potter you were more likely to dislike Trump and were more likely to be tolerant and liberal.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/09/2018 11:01

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/09/2018 11:03

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DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 11:06

I don't agree, DG - I think we can definitely make more use of wind/sun/wave.

I'm sure we could. With lots of subsidies, and some nice big nuclear baseline capability.

I could make use of sun and wind technology in powering Casa Rossetti. It wouldn't remove my need to be on the national grid though.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 11:09

We need to invest more in technology to allow us to harness the power in nature, certainly for domestic use, anyway.

One word: storage.

If there is a way to store energy from renewables we might be onto a thing. But the current trajectory of development suggests that - like fusion power, AI, and all the other technobollocks that fill the BBCs "tech" section, it's "five years away".

If there was ever a single-focus project the entire globe should be looking at, it's energy storage in general, since it's an enabling technology for so many others - electric cars being one, and a longer lived iPhone on the other ...

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/09/2018 11:11

Apparently there was a study that found that if you read Harry Potter you were more likely to dislike Trump and were more likely to be tolerant and liberal.

I quite like the idea of referring to the arch brexiteers as death eaters.

missclimpson · 17/09/2018 11:16

Blimey, how many Chalet School fans is that on this thread? Quite clear we need a Stop Brexit themed fête. 😀

HermioneGoesBackHome · 17/09/2018 11:17

Facts???

Westministenders: Conference Season
AnnieKenney · 17/09/2018 11:19

Portugal is getting there...

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 11:21

Factories principally powered by solar energy on the edge of the Sahara might be good 'planet wise'. If it were designed in such that production and work stops when the sun goes down it could be pretty efficient.

Somerville · 17/09/2018 11:24

So many that there must be a link between Remaining and reading CS, missclimpson. I suggest we make The Chalet School in Exile required reading for the whole country. (“Not all Germans are Nazis” was an extraordinarily powerful message for an English book published in 1940.)

missclimpson · 17/09/2018 11:27

Indeed Somerville. Interesting to know how much it influenced our thinking at an impressionable age.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 11:29

Factories principally powered by solar energy on the edge of the Sahara might be good 'planet wise'. If it were designed in such that production and work stops when the sun goes down it could be pretty efficient.

Who the fuck wants to work on the edge of the Sahara ?

The irritating thing is we are grasping towards the nub of the matter. Civilisation - and all it's trappings - is rooted firmly in the access to, and control of energy. No energy - no civilisation.

If the human race could develop a "free" energy source ("too cheap to meter ...") then we could (if we wanted to, and I'm not so sure that everybody does) eliminate poverty practically overnight.

The closest we've come is nuclear fission. And it's interesting to speculate if we'd have that if it wasn't for the military aspects.

I have a nuclear powered light on my keyring Smile. The deciding factor in buying it was the ordering information which stated that it wasn't allowed to be shipped to the US. So I got it to annoy DB Grin.

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