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Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Season

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2018 10:44

Party Conference Season has officially started. What happens could be utterly crucial for Brexit since Brexit isn't about the EU its about internal party divisions and the politics of personality.

Starting off in the Yellow Corner
The Lib Dems proposals for associate membership and a leader outside the HoC. We know that they support exit from Brexit but what is striking is the shake up of the party seems to be the only thing drawing attention and there is a distinct lack of talk of anything else - including Brexit. Yet there are hints of a tiny shift back to the LDs as Labour and the Conservatives implode despite the LDs having lost all direction. If they can find one then maybe they can throw spanners into the works further down the line.

Moving over to the Red Corner in Liverpool
The Labour Party strife and squabbling gets to be airred in full view in Liverpool; the ongoing anti-semitism row which seems to have no end in sight, the rising issues over women's rights, various Labour MPs being no confidenced in an attempt to deselect them and Brexit policy or more correctly lack of Brexit policy. Thornberry has stated that Labour will vote against any deal May puts forward seemingly in order to trigger another GE. This has been denied as being official policy, but she's a front bencher who hasn't been slapped down for disobedience by Corbyn. There are lots of rumours flying around about the party leadership being under pressure to change direction on Brexit so her comments might be push back against that. Word is that various trade unions and perhaps even Momentum are looking to push for another referendum and a much more pro-remain or explicit EEA policy.

And then there's the Blues...
Where to start with them??

Talk has changed from not whether there will be a leadership challenge to open and widespread discussion from moderate party loyals about when there will be one.

Its been said that a challenge isn't expected at conference nor straight after; the feeling is May will be left to sort out the withdrawal backstop agreement in October at least before being rudely dumped. But don't count on it. Especially in the party of backstabbers.

There's been lots of movement around Johnson too. Former close advisors say he's on self destruct but will still probably be PM. There's the break up of his marriage. There's the complete failure of his time in the foreign office where its hard to see what he actually did apart from upset people. There's his outrageous comments which seem in the style of Steve Bannon. There's talk of him suddenly apparently showing Brexit regret. For me there is one question, which seems very similar to Brexit itself: Boris Johnson has spent so much time and effort into the game of becoming PM, what thought has he given to what he actually does when he has achieved it? Its almost as if there is no plan for that...

Then theres the ERG, with their alternative Brexit White Paper which includes the magic Irish 'Not a Border but Looks Just Like a Border' Solution. Its supported by just about every Tory MP you'd put in a horror cabinet of heartless cold out of touch bastards, who would drive 20 miles out of their way rather than pass through a council estate. But even their stance seems to be softening; talk of aligning NI closely with EU - particularly with agrifoods seems to be moving away from a position compatible with a US trade deal.

And finally the original Tory Rebels, who like everyone else are firmly sticking their fingers up at May's Chequers Deal. Several have said they would support a People's Vote if May doesn't get her head out of her arse and admit the idea is a dead duck.

Look out for more 'non-Tory' style policy plans coming out over the next couple of weeks, like the talk of renationalising the railways.

So what does this mean for Brexit?
Well nothing and everything.

None of this changes the EU position. None of this changes the realities of the negogition process and the 29th March deadline.

It just is in some ways the final party show downs before decisions start HAVING to be made. Party fractures are going to be tested to their limits and the chances of it getting nasty, with the stakes being so high, are high.

I wouldn't like to call ANYTHING unless the conclusion of the conferences.

Its something we don't need as a country. Waiting for this lot to get their shit together has doomed the country.

The Recession is coming. It can not be stopped now. Regardless of what happens over Brexit. Its too late. We can only mitigate the scale of it.

This is the part just before the 2008 crash when people were saying what was about to happen, but everyone ignored. The accepted narrative now is that 'no one could have predicted the crash'. Except they could and they did. Its just that no one wanted to listen.

This is the part just before Iraq where thousands protested and were not listened to, because a politician had it in his head that it was the best option, but he had no real plan for what happened next.

This is the part when people said PFI was a spectactularly bad idea. But it kept being used over and over and over again by all political parties because it was politically easier in the short term.

Enjoy this Christmas.

Next year is going to be a rough old ride for a lot of people.

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SummerLightning · 19/09/2018 22:57

I mentioned lack of meds after Brexit to my brother a couple of months ago. He looked at me blankly. My brothers job? GP! Moral of the story: write to your GP. He is so wrapped up in his life and he admits he ignores the Brexit news. I bet he he is not unusual. I suspect it's more on his radar now than a couple of months ago as there has been more coverage recently - but still!

lonelyplanetmum · 20/09/2018 06:22

Yes write to your GP ( mine is worried too!) and send regular missives to your MP.

My passionate Leave Tory MP recently sent out a silly scaremongering survey. It was all about local crime. It had the key section at the end. The whole thing seemed designed to get your voting intentions. He is clearly worried. I completed the survey based not on local crime but I adapted my answers! All my responses were based on the national crime of relinquishing EU membership. I also answered his voting intention question- no problem.

lonelyplanetmum · 20/09/2018 06:26

On the subject of MPs..has this pathetic letter from Raab to Starner been posted? It some how feels very unsophisticated and containing amateurish points. What audience was it designed for?

I’m not a great fan of a second referendum as Clearly the electorate can't be trusted to spend the requisite time understanding the issues. But why on Earth does Raab say is it wrong “in principle, and in practice” in a democracy to ask people to confirm their advice in an advisory survey of views,once they actually see the deal beyond the precipice?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DndiKBSW4AAoR7D?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DndiKBSXoAEa0bp?format=jpg&name=medium

lonelyplanetmum · 20/09/2018 06:48

Also it may be old news but did we see MN got mentioned by Rachel Johnson here?

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/rachel-johnson-wanderlust-1-5693227

Sorry my post about Raab’s letter was a bit garbled. Here’s a better link..

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/98347/brexit-secretary-dominic-raab-accused-wasting-time

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 07:50

EXCL Lib Dem ruling board members savage radical Vince Cable reform plans

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/liberal-democrats/vince-cable/news/98349/excl-lib-dem-ruling-board-members

1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 07:57

Since the BBC has, I believe, a requirement to provide public service broadcasting, since we are all paying for the service mandated by Government 'strong arm' tactics, Why are they not providing is with full and relevant information about Brexit. Surely they have a duty to inform the public.
Surely this is rather more important than fancy cake programmes and twirling around in sequins?

Quietrebel · 20/09/2018 08:03

No surprises from TM yesterday I Salzburg. It seems we are facing a No Deal or Remain situation. If the public were given the choice, what do you think would win?

prettybird · 20/09/2018 08:11

According to BBC Breakfast, May had 10 minutes in Salzburg pitch her vision to the other European leaders, saying the UK's plan for Brexit was "serious and workable" and she urged those in the room to drop "unacceptable demands".

That would be her then Hmm

prettybird · 20/09/2018 08:15

And as others on here have pointed out, what the fuck is happening to Gibralta??!! Shock

It's seems to be become either invisible or entirely forgotten ConfusedSad

Peregrina · 20/09/2018 08:18

I think the right wing press and BBC, trundling out Farage again, would whip up fervour for No Deal.

If the MPs did their jobs properly when passing the legislation to allow for a Referendum and built in guarantees about it being advisory, having thresholds and not allowing false advertising, then it could be Remain. Add in votes for 16 & 17 year olds and EU citizens resident here and it would easily be Remain.

ShinyElena · 20/09/2018 08:39

Last night on BBC news they have explained the carious options for customs checks under various deal and no-deal scenarios really well in plain English. Basically they said all options will be worse than remain.
Why could not show tjis analysis in primetime 2 and a half years ago?! The facts did not change.

1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 08:40

Got an 'angry head' on this morning.
While bleating about Sovereignty, there is only 1 Sovereign in the UK, and that is HRH the Queen. EVERYONE else are merely subjects.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 08:40

With only a couple of weeks until the Tory Party Confrence May's statement was always going to be a wate of time for the other leaders to listen to.

She was obviously not going to include anything to further irritate the oarty faithful.

However, they only allocated her 10 minutes and that was only for minimum politeness.

November will be a better indicator, but I still suspect we'll have a last minute panic U-turn in 2019

AnnieKenney · 20/09/2018 08:41

Wow No other media outlets seem to be reporting this but if true clearly signals a desperate desire to avoid no deal.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 08:42

Which will be a MASSIVE inconvenience to the other 27 members to approve in time,

so we'll start off on our new journey into the world - or our return to the EU - by having pissed off 27 neighbours

1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 08:50

@Shiny, Hi!
Many of the scenarios that are only now dribbling into the limelight were stated before the vote. The expensive government leaflet posted to everyone said most of these things but it was perhaps a little understated as to how important the issues were and how difficult leaving would actually be. The leaflet was surprisingly accurate and even handed, it's failure was to say what will happen if we didn't continue (remain) enough, but that would have been branded 'project fear'.
Jeremy Paxman hosted 3 programmes before the vote and debunked most of the 'unicorns' that the leave campaign were shouting about.
Unfortunately being a bit 'bland' is not as sexy as a bright red bus with wild slogans deliberately taken out of context. The £360 Million could have had a cheque written to fund the NHS at the time of the vote, we already had the money.

Motheroffourdragons · 20/09/2018 08:51

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/09/2018 08:54

pretty I suggested (cynically) soon after the ref that it might be cost-effective to accept Gibraltar would be cut off by the EU if that gets the UK a better deal,
but then pump in subsidies / bungs so that the people living there don't actually suffer

With only about 40,000 inhabitants, even a £1 -1.5 billion per year subsidy - 1 x DUP bung - they would be fine
and the difference between no deal and a good deal could be £50-100 billion for the Uk

However, it is the NI border that is the roadblock to a WA, because Spain won't block an otherwise acceptable deal
Gibraltar is basically a matter of national pride for Spain,
rather than - re the RoI & the NI border - an issue with the potential to damage RoI trade with the E27 and to re-ignite a civil war

lonelyplanetmum · 20/09/2018 09:01

The expensive government leaflet posted to everyone said most of these things...The leaflet was surprisingly accurate and even handed.

But at the end of the day it was a leaflet.
By contrast Scotland produced a detailed 670 page document prior to their ref.

I remember that one of the Scottish documents was so detailed it even addressed Scotland's participation in the Eurovision Song Contest in the event of independence. It was that detailed.

https://www.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

DGRossetti · 20/09/2018 09:11

What's the point of any of it, when on this very site, on another forum, people are discussing how many flat-earthers they know ?

GhostofFrankGrimes · 20/09/2018 09:22

The only "literature" that mattered wrt to the referendum was the tabloids. There is still a leaver on these boards that thinks Brexit will free up more money for deprived areas. In the face of 2 years of evidence to the contrary.

jasjas1973 · 20/09/2018 09:23

That's a good point @DGR, also, does anyone else think that T.May is actually an extreme Brexitier? who makes JRM seem normal.

Or is she really putting her desire for power above that of the peoples of the UK? or is it just to keep the Tory party intact?

1tisILeClerc · 20/09/2018 09:27

While it might only have been a leaflet, my point is that it was pretty even handed and the things it talked about should have caused concern, at least enough for intelligent people to investigate further. For the whole population to now say 'we didn't know' is so disgustingly pathetic that they deserve whatever crap comes their way.
Thank you @Annie, although the linked article is interesting, the comments section below it is heartening, apart from a couple of Leaver idiots.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 20/09/2018 09:28

Or is she really putting her desire for power above that of the peoples of the UK? or is it just to keep the Tory party intact?

A little from column A, a little from column B.

I can only see three 3 possible outcomes;

1.The EU capitulates to the UK's demands. Highly unlikely.
2.No deal - May sticks to her "no deal is better than a bad deal" mantra. All hell breaks loose. See prepper threads for further details.
3.An extension is granted, May needs more time. Brexiteers livid, May is ousted. Hard Brexit.

Happy to be wrong on all counts!

DGRossetti · 20/09/2018 09:36

Or is she really putting her desire for power above that of the peoples of the UK? or is it just to keep the Tory party intact?

I think it's gone further than that now Sad. Fuck the Tory party, it's starting to dawn - across the board - that it's the country that needs to be kept together. We're edging towards uncharted territory. Unless anyone cares to correct me, the UK as a whole simply has never experienced the possible civil disruption being contemplated. Never. Not 50 years ago. Not 100 years ago. Not 200 years ago. It's been the one consistency which has prevented revolution a la French-stylee.

One thing vaguely struck me last night ... has any election been predicated upon a parties expressed aim not to do something ? Because following on from the linguistic subtleties about referendums in this parliament, I wondered if we could see a General election where the promise of a referendum on one side has to be matched by a promise not to have a referendum on the other.

How would a campaign for power based on not giving the public a say work ?