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Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Season

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2018 10:44

Party Conference Season has officially started. What happens could be utterly crucial for Brexit since Brexit isn't about the EU its about internal party divisions and the politics of personality.

Starting off in the Yellow Corner
The Lib Dems proposals for associate membership and a leader outside the HoC. We know that they support exit from Brexit but what is striking is the shake up of the party seems to be the only thing drawing attention and there is a distinct lack of talk of anything else - including Brexit. Yet there are hints of a tiny shift back to the LDs as Labour and the Conservatives implode despite the LDs having lost all direction. If they can find one then maybe they can throw spanners into the works further down the line.

Moving over to the Red Corner in Liverpool
The Labour Party strife and squabbling gets to be airred in full view in Liverpool; the ongoing anti-semitism row which seems to have no end in sight, the rising issues over women's rights, various Labour MPs being no confidenced in an attempt to deselect them and Brexit policy or more correctly lack of Brexit policy. Thornberry has stated that Labour will vote against any deal May puts forward seemingly in order to trigger another GE. This has been denied as being official policy, but she's a front bencher who hasn't been slapped down for disobedience by Corbyn. There are lots of rumours flying around about the party leadership being under pressure to change direction on Brexit so her comments might be push back against that. Word is that various trade unions and perhaps even Momentum are looking to push for another referendum and a much more pro-remain or explicit EEA policy.

And then there's the Blues...
Where to start with them??

Talk has changed from not whether there will be a leadership challenge to open and widespread discussion from moderate party loyals about when there will be one.

Its been said that a challenge isn't expected at conference nor straight after; the feeling is May will be left to sort out the withdrawal backstop agreement in October at least before being rudely dumped. But don't count on it. Especially in the party of backstabbers.

There's been lots of movement around Johnson too. Former close advisors say he's on self destruct but will still probably be PM. There's the break up of his marriage. There's the complete failure of his time in the foreign office where its hard to see what he actually did apart from upset people. There's his outrageous comments which seem in the style of Steve Bannon. There's talk of him suddenly apparently showing Brexit regret. For me there is one question, which seems very similar to Brexit itself: Boris Johnson has spent so much time and effort into the game of becoming PM, what thought has he given to what he actually does when he has achieved it? Its almost as if there is no plan for that...

Then theres the ERG, with their alternative Brexit White Paper which includes the magic Irish 'Not a Border but Looks Just Like a Border' Solution. Its supported by just about every Tory MP you'd put in a horror cabinet of heartless cold out of touch bastards, who would drive 20 miles out of their way rather than pass through a council estate. But even their stance seems to be softening; talk of aligning NI closely with EU - particularly with agrifoods seems to be moving away from a position compatible with a US trade deal.

And finally the original Tory Rebels, who like everyone else are firmly sticking their fingers up at May's Chequers Deal. Several have said they would support a People's Vote if May doesn't get her head out of her arse and admit the idea is a dead duck.

Look out for more 'non-Tory' style policy plans coming out over the next couple of weeks, like the talk of renationalising the railways.

So what does this mean for Brexit?
Well nothing and everything.

None of this changes the EU position. None of this changes the realities of the negogition process and the 29th March deadline.

It just is in some ways the final party show downs before decisions start HAVING to be made. Party fractures are going to be tested to their limits and the chances of it getting nasty, with the stakes being so high, are high.

I wouldn't like to call ANYTHING unless the conclusion of the conferences.

Its something we don't need as a country. Waiting for this lot to get their shit together has doomed the country.

The Recession is coming. It can not be stopped now. Regardless of what happens over Brexit. Its too late. We can only mitigate the scale of it.

This is the part just before the 2008 crash when people were saying what was about to happen, but everyone ignored. The accepted narrative now is that 'no one could have predicted the crash'. Except they could and they did. Its just that no one wanted to listen.

This is the part just before Iraq where thousands protested and were not listened to, because a politician had it in his head that it was the best option, but he had no real plan for what happened next.

This is the part when people said PFI was a spectactularly bad idea. But it kept being used over and over and over again by all political parties because it was politically easier in the short term.

Enjoy this Christmas.

Next year is going to be a rough old ride for a lot of people.

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DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 14:31

Back to Brexit

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45550025

About 1,000 workers at Jaguar's Castle Bromwich plant in Birmingham will move from a five-day to a three-day week from October until Christmas.

Jaguar Land Rover said it was making "temporary adjustments to our production schedules" at the factory.

It affects about half the plant's 2,000 workers, who will remain on full pay.

Jack Dromey, the Labour MP for Erdington, blamed "Brexit chaos and the mishandling by ministers of the transition from diesel" for the move.

(contd)

not sure if this is (again) some subtle trolling by Jaguar, but for people who don't know the great Hmm city of Birmingham, the island outside the factory is called Spitfire Island, because it has a sculpture of 3 Spitfires on it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel_(sculpture)

If anyone from Jaguar is reading this, I got it. But then I'm not a Brexiteer.

OlennasWimple · 17/09/2018 14:49

I don't understand why the nice discreet solar panels that I saw displayed nearly ten years ago (that look much like normal roof tiles) havent' been developed to the extent that every house should have them. Just because we can't be completely self-sufficient, it doens't mean it isn't worth reducing our consumption of non-renewables. Surely?

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 15:07

Good question Olennas.
There is considerable resistance in the UK building industry to 'importing' innovative ideas from outside the UK. 'Solar' hot water is practically standard around the Mediterranean.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 15:11

I don't understand why the nice discreet solar panels that I saw displayed nearly ten years ago (that look much like normal roof tiles) haven't been developed to the extent that every house should have them

Vaporware ? Until we have a revolution in the science, PV tech is horrendously inefficient. The only mitigation in recent years has been the development of LED (low power) lighting, which is probably the best use for PV power generally.

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/09/2018 15:36

it's either my deal or no deal

Oh Theresa - you can say what you like to your own MPs ... but the EU has already said 'non' 'nein' 'nee' 'nej' 'ochi' 'il no' 'nao' and 21 other variants. So no deal it is Hmm

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 15:44

As we (on here at least) know, the 'rules' of the EU club why they bothered with the Chequers charade and coming up with a paper that had all the WRONG answers on it is beyond belief.
Starting out 2 or more years ago with SOME things to satisfy the rabid leavers and SOME things that had a chance of negotiation would have borne fruit. CU and SM, given the country boundaries and economic restraints are crucial obviously. if we want the UK to exist in any real sense they almost have to stay. There COULD have been 2 years worth of constructive discussion.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2018 15:49

That's worrying, woman
JLR are already down to 2,000 workers there

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 15:52

The inefficiency of PV panels needn't be a huge issue IF they are cheap enough to manufacture. As a 'roof tile' they could replace complete roofs (well, principally on new builds) but they would need to be down to some 20 - 25 p /tile. Since they could be physically lighter than standard clay tiles they might be beneficial in requiring less overall strength in the rood support design, possible savings here. Glass reinforced roof trusses perhaps, using recycled plastic and glass? At least they wouldn't get woodworm or various rots.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 15:53

As we (on here at least) know, the 'rules' of the EU club why they bothered with the Chequers charade and coming up with a paper that had all the WRONG answers on it is beyond belief.

Possibly because Chequers is the closest the EU is going to get to something concrete to work around ? Even a bad plan is better than no plan, and can be licked into shape. Previous to Chequers astrology would have been as much use as trying to divine what the nexus of DD/BJ and LF were spouting.

It's been over a month since the "Chequers plan". If nothing else, it's notable that nothing else has been allowed to emerge in the interim.

I suspect the aim of Chequers was nothing to do with the EU (who we know will reject it) and everything to do with throwing down a gauntlet to the ERG-Brexiteers to come up with something more than bellyaching. Which they have conspicuously failed to do.

The trick with Theresa Mays Brexit is not to imagine how it sounds to the EU, but how it sounds to middle England. With the sad irony that the most EU-literate demographic in the UK is "middle England". So they know it's bollocks.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 15:54

1tisILeClerc

all you are really doing, is proving my point. We are nowhere near domestic PV as a viable energy source. Be better off fitting dynamo bikes in peoples lounges.

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 15:54

Interesting that they are going to 3 day production but keeping full pay.
I wonder if Madame May has been whispering in their ear to do that?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2018 15:55

Deutsche Bank to shift more assets to Frankfurt, ringfence UK operations after Brexit

This is DB moving assets, not jobs, but it makes a difference to the wealth held in the London
The real cost to them is trying to ringfence its UK operations - potentially cost DB hundreds of millions of euros. and take 3-5 years.
All these costs to E27 businesses and members must really piss them off about Brexit

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-deutsche-bank-brexit/deutsche-to-shift-more-assets-to-frankfurt-ringfence-uk-operations-after-brexit-source-idUSKCN1LW0O8

Deutsche Bank (DBKGn.DE) is considering shifting large volumes of assets from London to Frankfurt after the UK’s planned exit from the European Union next year to meet demands from European regulators
...
Deutsche could eventually move about three-quarters of its estimated 600 billion euros in capital back from London to its headquarters.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 15:57

Interesting that they are going to 3 day production but keeping full pay. I wonder if Madame May has been whispering in their ear to do that?

Probably more tax efficient ? Also, if they are contractors, reducing paid hours might mean some IR35 tax could be reclaimed. Bearing in mind HMRC systems aren't fit for purpose going forwards. Let alone back.

I wonder how many of them aren't UK citizens, but EU ...

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 16:01

For a similar cost, if achievable, it could be worth putting 3 tons of glass with electricity producing capabilities, rather than 5 tons of baked clay that just sits there.
Sometimes you have to embrace a 'can do' attitude.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 16:02

Sometimes you have to embrace a 'can do' attitude.

well that's the UK out of the running then.

woman11017 · 17/09/2018 16:06

That's worrying, woman
I'm still reeling from the crisis planning forecast podcast made by an ex copper and ex soldier on how the first week after the brexit pans out. I think I posted link up thread. It takes us from March 29th 2019 till about April 5th 2109.

Patrick predicted exactly this with industry making a mass exodus now, and then 'The Fall' as he's calling it from Jan onwards next year.
So similar what you've been saying too. Flowers for giving us the truth and so many well informed warnings. BigChoc

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2018 16:09

re "Chequers" breakthrough:

More analysts are now cottoning on to Barnier's new proposal of "unobstrusive" tech checks between NI and rUK.
His cunning plans genuinely are cunning, rather than the UK's government by Baldrick.

It massively simplifies the tech task if the goods to be checked are at ports / on ships,
rather than at hundreds of land crossing points along a 300-mile border, which even runs through some businesses and homes

Most Brexiters & Leavers though don't seem to have cottoned on to what is beneath the word froth,
so let's hope this continues until a WA

Barnier is trying to bolster up May sufficiently so that she survives the Tory conference and isn't toppled until - he hopes - the WA has been signed & approved

There is no time for him to try and find signs of intelligence in her successor, whoever that would be

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 16:12

I haven't seen unicorns mentioned by anyone for ages.

woman11017 · 17/09/2018 16:12

His cunning plans genuinely are cunning
There was a Paul Newman film in which he played a copper who outsmarted a nutter going apeshit with a knife by feigning lunacy too and disarming said dangerous loony.

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 16:16

Even with a few dissenters, Mr Barnier does have a lot of 'brainpower' backing up the proposals he puts forward. Mrs May has several packs of rabid dogs trying to find a lamppost to pee on. Not suggesting that her plan is actually any good either.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2018 16:17

woman I remember that Paul Newman scene.
He played a disillusioned cop, when society was breaking down and Cop Central was reacting brutally

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2018 16:18

In this case, our main hope is "kindness from strangers" as on the thread in Chat

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 16:43

Even with a few dissenters, Mr Barnier does have a lot of 'brainpower' backing up the proposals he puts forward.

There are some markers I use to gauge intelligence, one of which is how to assess odds, and how to play them.

For example, I consider a criminal to be stupid. I really don't care about their (alleged) IQ, or any other supposed proxy for intelligence. If you choose to be a criminal, you are effectively pitting yourself against 99% of the rest of society. Hardly great odds, and invariably leading to a "having to be lucky every day" sort of existence.

Similarly, by choosing to antagonise and really piss off (and if there is no deal, we are going to hear some home truths from the EU27, I have no doubt) 27 countries, rather than engage and work with them, the UK has clearly telegraphed the level of intellect it's working at. Which is no match for the best team of players from a spread of 27 countries.

My DF used the same logic when he was called for national service (in Italy). He could have evaded it quite easily (many did). But he always said that having to look over your shoulder every day wasn't a clever thing to do. (Annoyingly I managed to get flagged as going AWOL when I turned 18. Luckily I checked before I tried going back in the 80s, or I would have been arrested ....)

1tisILeClerc · 17/09/2018 16:52

The UK (or at least it's government) have climbed into the village stocks and fastened itself in ready to have the rotten fruit and veg chucked at it.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2018 16:58

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/17/ifg_brexit_not_ready/

The UK government has left its preparation for a no-deal Brexit too late, while secrecy around negotiations has left businesses unable to prepare, a report has said.

The latest missive to slam the government’s preparedness for the UK’s departure from the European Union comes from the Institute for Government think tank.

Brexit: six months to go (PDF), published today, said that crucial Whitehall systems unlikely to be in place by March 2019 if the government fails to negotiate a deal.

(contd)

Apparently some US firms are starting to engage the lawyers they had on retainers since 2016 ... I suspect they'll be able to form an orderly queue.

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