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Brexit

Westminstenders: Operation Yellowhammer 1q

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2018 11:11

Boris Johnson is clearing the decks for a leadership challenge.

I guess that means that the Brexit we get all depends on what George, Michael and Boris decide over lunch and how good Operation Yellowhammer is.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
HesterThrale · 11/09/2018 08:07

So, about deal-planning... Has Boris or JRM or the ERG published their long-promised alternative-to-Chequers deal details yet? I don't think so. And I think we all know why.

This is the thing that makes me the most angry. It's ludicrous that we're still here after 27 months. The ERG just frustrate and criticise everything; no constructive suggestions. We're going round in circles.

...if the ERG do publish a proposal it will finally mean that the Ultras’ plans come under scrutiny, something which should have occurred during the referendum campaign if, as they claim, the vote endorsed their version of Brexit. This possibility may, indeed, by one reason why they may decide not to go ahead with publication.

The reason for that loop is quite simply stated: there is no way of undertaking Brexit – and certainly not hard Brexit, in its original meaning – which does not do a level of damage to the economy and also to the politics of Northern Ireland that no democratic government could get away with. Hence when the government try to find a relatively less economically damaging form of Brexit, proponents of hard Brexit revolt; when hard Brexiters push towards an FTA or even no deal, the economic damage implied causes pragmatic politicians and voters to recoil. It is that basic, irreconcilable contradiction which structures current the British politics of Brexit.

chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com. (previously posted here)

lonelyplanetmum · 11/09/2018 08:31

The ERG just frustrate and criticise everything; no constructive suggestions.

The thing I want journalists to pick up on and they never do - is why members of the ERG are permitted to use taxpayers time and money operating a subversive faction or cabal within government?

Is there any historical precedent for other single issue groups becoming so subversive within government?

1tisILeClerc · 11/09/2018 08:44

Sorry it is jumping back to last night, but the issue of the prevention of war in Europe is a strong motivator in Europe itself.
The UK mainland has not been occupied by a 'foreign' power for a very long time and the experience of WW1 and 2 in Britain was not like that in the rest of Europe. The cemeteries, mostly small, sprinkled across northern France and Belgium etc and the naming of village squares is a constant reminder to all of what can happen. My village has a small monument and the square is named the date of when this village was liberated by a Scottish platoon. 4 miles away lie 809 soldiers from around the world who came to give peace to this area.
Yes Britain was bombed, which was terrible, but the overall experience was different, there was not the constant terror of being informed on and being dragged off in the night for years on end.
Back nearer the subject. Late last night the ERG were saying they won't publish their plans. Sounds distinctly childish to me.
I wonder what today will bring.

HesterThrale · 11/09/2018 08:44

Very good point lonely.

I suppose it reminds me of the European Parliament having to tolerate 22 UKIP MEPs in their midst... who were/are trying to subvert and even destroy it. Their stated aim. A third of our representation in the EU.

No wonder it was difficult for us to build good relationships, move forward, make progress, consolidate our position and proactively shape and change the EU.

1tisILeClerc · 11/09/2018 08:50

@Lonely
While agreeing with you I am not sure concentrating on that is particularly important at this point. Yes they are most likely using public funds and the actions are distinctly against the common good but the vastness of the disaster that it will cause far overshadows their few million Pounds. Playing the 'I show mine if you show yours' game is not a good look for politicians planning to run a country.

Hazardswan · 11/09/2018 08:51

I bring up the UKIP MEP all the time, they were so not interested in making it work it's ridiculous they are there.

ElenaGreco123 · 11/09/2018 08:51

1tisILeClerc You are very right there. It always winds me up listening to the English part of our family how much harder they had it in the war than anyone else. Nobody else has suffered in Europe and they all collaborated willingly. There is just no compassion or interest in facts there.

woman11017 · 11/09/2018 08:52

Macron Push to Drop CIA Code Quickens as Trump Calls EU Foe
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-06/macron-push-to-drop-cia-code-turns-serious-as-trump-calls-eu-foe

Westminstenders: Operation Yellowhammer 1q
woman11017 · 11/09/2018 08:55

Just released, the HoC Briefing on impact of a #NoDealBrexit
researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8397

Time to buy some tickets......

woman11017 · 11/09/2018 09:02

Think 1920s Russia.

It is difficult to pinpoint the economic impact of ‘no deal’ with certainty. Many economists expect the pound to fall in value in the event of ‘no deal’. This would mean the price of imports would rise, pushing up inflation. However, UK exports would become cheaper internationally, potentially mitigating some of the disruptive effects on trading with the EU. There might also by an opportunity for improved UK growth prospects from trade deals with other non-EU countries
LOL

But most economic modelling in this area shows that the potential benefits of leaving the EU with no deal over the longer term do not make up for the higher trade barriers with the EU, given its importance to the UK
#DirtyRemainer

With no withdrawal agreement or framework for future relations, trade between the two economies would be conducted under the terms of the World Trade Organisation. Tariffs on UK exports to the EU and vice versa are expected (assuming the UK would not change its Most Favoured Nation tariffs under WTO rules). Tariffs would be low, averaging around 3%, but for some goods they would be higher. Potentially more disruptive would be non-tariff barriers, where additional paperwork, customs checks, technical requirements and regulatory standards could slow things down

At the moment of leaving the EU customs union without a deal, the border between the UK and the EU would become a customs border. This is likely to mean more customs controls and probably increased costs and delays for business. It is estimated, for example, that delays caused by customs checks of trucks from the EU could cause a 17-mile queue at the port of Dover

^A hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland
The EU and the UK Government share a commitment to avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, but they have yet to reach an agreement on how best to avoid checks and infrastructure at the border. Technology, a degree of ongoing regulatory alignment and some sort of customs agreement have all been suggested as possible solutions, but it is unlikely that any of these would be in place in a no-deal scenario^

One proposed solution to avoid disruption at the border is for the UK to waive checks and tariffs on EU goods as they enter NI. However, many trade experts believe this would trigger the Most Favoured Nation principle that applies to all WTO agreements, which would require the UK to waive its tariffs and checks on goods coming in from all other countries. The EU has said they would impose checks on goods entering Ireland regardless. This would cause delays and probably reduce trade, particularly in agri-foods, which make up a large proportion of cross-border trade

There are concerns, shared by the UK government, that if there is infrastructure on the border to enable checks on goods, it would become a target for dissident republicans. However, some commentators believe that border checks would not inspire a new wave of dissident activity, and that any infrastructure and checks can be done away from the border, which would lessen their impact. The majority of people in Northern Ireland are opposed to any form of North-South border checks

^Free movement
Free movement of people rights, whereby any EU national can work in, live in or provide services in any EU Member State providing they meet certain conditions, is a key citizens’ right that will be affected by a no-deal Brexit^

The Government wants to implement a ‘settled status’ regime for EU nationals in the UK, whether there is a withdrawal agreement or not. Those with settled status should have full access to UK social security benefits. The position of those who on exit day have not yet been resident in the UK for five years – those with ‘pre-settled status’ – is less clear

For UK nationals in the EU it is unclear whether they could continue to access UK social security benefits in the EU27 Member State they reside in at the time. The existing reciprocal healthcare arrangements for UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK would probably end
Food supply is way down on the list.
Keep calm and starve and all that.

Food supply Half of the UK’s food and drink supply comes from within the UK, with 30% from the EU and 20% from the rest of the world. Potential disruption to food supplies immediately after a no-deal Brexit has been given regular media coverage. Exiting the EU Secretary Dominic Raab told the Exiting the EU Committee that the Government would “look at this issue in the round and make sure that there is adequate food supply…”. The retail sector is concerned about the practicalities of stockpiling food

HesterThrale · 11/09/2018 09:04

Thanks, woman, interesting. It says:

The Government believes a no-deal scenario could be managed in an “orderly” fashion (although this view is not necessarily shared by other stakeholders). On 23 August the Department for Exiting the EU published 25 ‘technical notices’, the first of three sets of ‘guidance on how to prepare for Brexit if there's no deal’.

So where ARE the other guidance/impact papers? They only published 23 of them. Supposed to 70? Or 84?
Time is moving on.

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8397

woman11017 · 11/09/2018 09:12

It's Entebbe but without the brave and clever rescuers.

Peregrina · 11/09/2018 09:16

It always winds me up listening to the English part of our family how much harder they had it in the war than anyone else.

There was an interesting letter in the Guardian a few days back, basically saying the EU owe us for the period 'we fought alone'. Yesterday's answers gave short shrift to that with some angry letters from a Pole, a Greek, an Indian, who gave details of their own contribution and also one from a British citizen pointing out how a short stretch of sea saved us from being occupied. Otherwise the aristocracy, wealthy landowners and other 'gauleiters' would have been more than happy to throw in their lot with the regime.

Whilst I am on the subject of collaborators with Fascist regimes, I can recommend - Travellers in the Third Reich, subtitled The rise of Fascism through the eyes of everyday people, by Julia Boyd. It illustrates how so many people from other countries went along with it and didn't question, or even admired Hitler. It does also give some noble examples of people who did question and did try to do something.

1tisILeClerc · 11/09/2018 09:20

@Hester
Give the civil servants a break!
It must be very hard writing technical notes when the 'government' change the plans or ideas by the time you get to the end of each page.
It is tricky producing notes with multiple scenarios.
This is a toaster. You put the coffee pods in here and the shoes that need cleaning in here....

ElenaGreco123 · 11/09/2018 09:23

From the Telegraph

Westminstenders: Operation Yellowhammer 1q
HesterThrale · 11/09/2018 09:24

1tisILeClerc I'm certainly not blaming the civil servants! I'm sure they're working very hard in difficult circumstances.
It's just a ridiculous, ludicrous, impossible, almost risible situation they've been placed in.

DGRossetti · 11/09/2018 09:27

The UK mainland has not been occupied by a 'foreign' power for a very long time and the experience of WW1 and 2 in Britain was not like that in the rest of Europe.

Any child over age of 12 should know the names Lidice

Oradour sur Glane

or, from my DFs country of birth

Sant'Anna di Stazzema WARNING very upsetting content.

Nothing like that happened in or two the UK. And you really, really really need to impress that these horrors happened within living memory - after both my parents and DWs parents were born.

lonelyplanetmum · 11/09/2018 09:28

No wonder it was difficult for us to build good relationships, move forward, make progress, consolidate our position and proactively shape and change the EU.

Good point. When a subversive faction is allowed to gather strength it never ends well.

TM may as well disband sweaty and foxy's departments or put the ERG in charge.What's the point in the vast expense of the DexEU and Trade departments when the ERG seem to have legitimately (?) usurped the role anyway?

1tisILeClerc · 11/09/2018 09:28

Thank you Peregrina
I mentioned the '10 myths' talked about in a piece in the Mail (I think).
It was an extract from a book.
One of the aspects was that Hitler didn't particularly want to occupy Britain which makes sense if you consider what the Germans were more likely to be interested in capturing mineral wealth from the East (of Germany).
There is a question which would be interesting to have some answers, having conquered a country, what do you want to DO with it?

1tisILeClerc · 11/09/2018 09:36

Stories from Syria and other countries NOW about occupation they are living with seem to float over so many who are arguing the toss over the price of bananas or a queue at 'build a bear'.
There will be parents terrified that this afternoon they may have to go and find the bits of their child who went out to play at lunchtime that have picked up some live ammunition.

DGRossetti · 11/09/2018 09:39

It is estimated, for example, that delays caused by customs checks of trucks from the EU could cause a 17-mile queue at the port of Dover

Imagine policing a 17 mile queue - effectively an internal border.

Policing ?

Well, quite aside from the local ne'er do wells, the prize of an HGV groaning with hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of goodies, immobilized with any "protection" spread across a 17 mile queue, there's the added attraction of all the spare lorry parts you could boost from an almost endless stock of donor vehicles.

If you listen to tales from around the world, you'll understand why long lorry queues in - or out - of customs checkpoints usually have a dedicated military presence.

Call me a bit unadventurous, but I've managed to get to my 50s without seeing soldiers deployed in the streets (and I know that's not the case for Northern Irish folk). I really don't like the idea of starting now.

Peregrina · 11/09/2018 09:40

If you think of how ignorant Theresa May and Karen Bradley are of the history of part of our own country, and seem proud of the fact too, do you wonder that they don't know the first thing about WW2 massacres?

ElenaGreco123 · 11/09/2018 10:07

DS's topic for the term is children in war. He already knows more about the WWs than most just by listening to me muttering darkly during films. Even my highly-educated curious DH widely underestimated the number of victims in WW2.

Hazardswan · 11/09/2018 10:11

Mogg's on Jeremy vine channel 5.

Gonna puke up my breakfast Envy

1tisILeClerc · 11/09/2018 10:12

@DGR
Don't worry, the government have things in hand with the probable Queue on the motorway.
It is well known that ladies have a much longer queue for 'bathrooms' when here we will have a 17 mile queue of truckers waiting for the Portaloo that the Gov are installing.