Have your frienships and family relationships suffered as a result of Brexit?

[Wormzy]

Just that, really. If friends and/ or family members have clearly voted differently to you, has it changed the way you see them or interact with them? Have friendships broken down?

I haven't been able to vote, but the outcome of the vote affects me disproportionately. Family members have voted Leave. There have been arguments, also between friends, some ended in loss of contact.

I wonder how the Brexit vote has affected others on here?

Leaving aside all other arguments, there is one aspect I find amazing here. Why on earth is a concern about immigration numbers racist? I find this automatic correlation remarkable!

Indeed I believe Brexit happened because this debate wasn’t allowed to happen. People weren’t allowed to say that uncontrolled immigration from the EU had negative effects on their community.

Very odd.

Yes. A uni mate had totally been brainwashed. it all came out when we met on out girls trip. We had all assumed we’d voted the same. Awkward and sad as our relationship is now different ( her dad a councillor and she has been supporting him) .

My whole family voted leave except me because I didn't vote. Had I voted, it would have been leave. Not a single one regrets the vote. On the other hand I have good friends who have actually left the UK for Europe to get "grandfathered in" to the EU and were hard core remainers. We just don't talk about it and get on with things.

Brexit has caused rifts in my family. Sibling and their spouse can’t talk about it as they voted differently. Each suspects the other now regrets their vote - not sure that’s right. A recent gathering did result in a ‘discussion’ inadvertently caused by some saying they weren’t planning flights/major travel in the spring because of Brexit uncertainty. We can’t discuss the huge more central issues posted by others above. Ended up discussing food import problems and an offer by the leave voter to help store my planned ad hoc stock of olives capers etc. When we got to problems with various medications and nhs stockpiling employment etc we had to call a halt as we could all see huge argument on horizon. It’s so divisive that in our family it feels like one of those big family issues which ripples through the generations and is never aired. Olives and capers is as far as we will ever get I am afraid so we will never really understand each other’s positions.

"Indeed I believe Brexit happened because this debate wasn’t allowed to happen. People weren’t allowed to say that uncontrolled immigration from the EU had negative effects on their community."

There are a number of issues with this.

Yes they were allowed to say it, in fact they had huge swathes of the media reporting it as fact, it didn't make them right though.

EU immigrants causing lower wages - nope.

EU immigrants causing higher waiting times- nope.

EU immigrants causing school shortages- nope.

EU immigrants causing housing costs to increase- nope.

The vast majority of areas with high levels of EU immigration were overwhelmingly remain, whilst those with very low levels were leave.

Frankly if you spout prejudiced bile against one particular group you deserve pulling up on it.

"Indeed I believe Brexit happened because this debate wasn’t allowed to happen. People weren’t allowed to say that uncontrolled immigration from the EU had negative effects on their community."

There are a number of issues with this.

Very valid points Topcat but I think the extra point that could be added is that (some) voters confused all past immigration with the EU.

There seemed to be a hope or belief that Leave was the first step in getting immigrant descendants to leave. Much of the talk about Immigration negatively affecting 'our' community is a legacy directed at Indian or Pakistani descent immigration often from a generation ago. This of course was tiddly squat to do with the EU and all to do with the legacy of countries under British colonial rule.

Some other misleading stuff ignored the following:

The NHS was heavily reliant on EU migration- yup.

EU immigrants are often better educated than Brits - yup.

EU migrants less likely to claim benefits than the UK-born Brits- yup.

A third of EU immigrants only affect London- yup.

EU immigrants statistically increased demand for goods and services and created more employment - yup

Falls in wages after 2008 were due to the global financial crisis and a weak economic recovery- yup.

EU immigrants paid more in taxes than they took out in welfare and the use of public services- yup.

EU migration helped reduce the budget deficit- yup.

Brits not immigrants had the negative effect on local services such as crime, education, health, or social housing- yup.

Refugee crisis had nothing to do with EU membership- yup.

Refugees admitted to Germany had no right to live in the UK-yup.

UK is not in Schengen so there are border checks on EU immigrants- yup.

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

Indeed I believe Brexit happened because this debate wasn’t allowed to happen. People weren’t allowed to say that uncontrolled immigration from the EU had negative effects on their community.

On Question Time a lot of people seemed to be saying nothing else for about three years prior to the referendum. People on the other side of the "debate" tried to engage with them using actual facts and were roundly ignored.

I learned very early on in the overall referendum campaign that once someone has formed a view on immigration (such as "EU immigration is the reason why I can't get a GP appointment when I want one"), then no amount of facts or debates will convince them to reconsider that view.

It was an emotional decision rather than a logical one, and intelligent debate didn't really come into it as far as I could see.

Why on earth is a concern about immigration numbers racist?

It’s not necessarily racist, no, what are your main concerns?

As far as I see it everyone is entitled to their opinion. If a person cannot accept someone else's opinion without bring petty and dramatic then they are the one in the wrong. Honestly most people I know have accepted the vote and have moved on from it.

everyone is entitled to their opinion

Well, yes, has anyone posted otherwise?

My opinion is that if you voted leave ‘because of the muslims’ Then you are thick and racist - not qualities I look for in a friend.

So do you pester leave voters for their reason why they voted that way?

Er most were really proud to tell me their reasons two years ago.

I might ask a vocal leave voter why they voted leave but that’s not ‘pestering’

If a person cannot accept someone else's opinion without bring petty and dramatic then they are the one in the wrong.

Is it being "petty and dramatic" to want to some answers about what will happen to British citizens in the EU or EU citizens in the UK after Brexit day? Or to want reassurance that the supply of medicines you depend on will not be disrupted or that you will not lose your job because of Brexit?

A lot of people are genuinely affected by these issues and it is not petty or dramatic to be increasingly worried about them. Not when we've got six months to go until we leave the EU and so far no answers to a whole host of absolutely critical issues.

It's great for you that you've "moved on from it".

I wish I could but unfortunately I am still affected by it, every single day.

The real impact of 'leaving' hasn't happened yet, at least to the 'person in the street'. European Big business has said that it can't remain in the UK unless JIT supply lines and tariffs are maintained. Smaller and non EU centric companies are holding back on investment and keeping their fingers crossed (or planning quietly).
Prices in shops have risen, not too dramatically yet, and indeed they have across Europe too but not as much.

Well don't take offence, but you come across as quite obsessive by it all. As long as you're not one of these people who cannot help but drop Brexit into every conversation.

Indeed I believe Brexit happened because this debate wasn’t allowed to happen. People weren’t allowed to say that uncontrolled immigration from the EU had negative effects on their community.

Cobblers.

In 2009 I attended (well, DS really wanted to go) a Cameron Direct event locally. Lasted just under an hour. Every single question he took from the audience was about immigration. Every single one. I've no love for DC, but fair play, he replied with facts and figures and no one was listening. The only non-immigration question he had (after he said he had things to say about the NHS) came from a South African radiographer who said she may as well go back to South Africa, as the UK clearly had no need of foreigners.

We've never had an immigration "debate" in this country. We've had the likes of Farage and folk stirring things up with lies, and the factual, truthful responses ignored.

everyone is entitled to their opinion

But not their own facts.

Interesting how on most threads debate boils down to immigration.

The world has globalised.We had a disproportionate role in accelerating that process as a result of our glorious empire.

Well don't take offence, but you come across as quite obsessive by it all.

Well don't take offence, but you come across as rather dim.

Brexit is a fundamental issue for huge numbers of people who quite literally cannot plan for their lives or futures with this hanging over their heads.

Who are you to tell a British person living in France who doesn't know whether they will be allowed to continue to practise in their current profession, or an insulin dependent diabetic, or someone working in the British aviation or financial services industry whose job is Under threat that they are being "obsessive"?

I can't help but feel that people who accuse others of being "obsessive" over Brexit have failed to understand the gravity of the situation we are in.

If we do end up crashing out of the EU with no deal and we have food and medicine shortages, or planes are unable to take off and land in the UK for an unspecified period of time, or the UK starts to suffer from hyperinflation as a result of the pound crashing and the UK suddenly being the only advanced economy in the world without any trade agreements, I really hope you're not going to wail that no one warned you this would happen.

Because the people you are currently accusing of being "obsessive" and probably other similarly unhelpful insults such as "scaremongering" and "Project Fear" as well are currently warning you about the possibility and risk of all of these things.

And there you go. You just cannot help but come across as aggressive. Calling me dim, just for challenging why you are so obsessed by it? I understand your reasons for voting as you did and how it may affect you but preaching and being bitter isn't going to change it. If you are as obsessive in real life as you come across online about the topic then I strongly suspect anyone you've cut ties with are probably quite mutually relieved.

"Calling me dim, just for challenging why you are so obsessed by it?"

I'm afraid that if you don't understand why the people in the examples I have given (plus countless others) are deeply concerned about what is happening, then you are incredibly dim.

And if you do understand why they are concerned, then why are you calling them "obsessive"? If you understand why they are concerned then surely you must agree that they are completely justified in being "obsessive".

What is your continual preaching and bitterness going to achieve though?

And there we all go - words like preachy pester obsessed bitter dim and racist are what this brings out in us. Lack of a proper truthful open eyed debate and an idea of what it would mean BEFORE the vote has left the whole issue a squabble. It can’t be right that worry about what will happen and says so means someone is bitter? I know people who are really worried, frightened actually, about essential medicines not being available about ability to live in this country (non eu partners of british subjects, non eu permanent resident arrengments etc) about the ability to continue study or work already in progress in the eu about food prices rising for a host of reasons, about eu funding reliant projects ending about redundancies etc. How is it possible to accept it and move on when people, millions of us, can’t plan or organise or know what will happen ? It’s great if some are blissfully unconcerned and not clearly affected but as a society we will all be affected - there’s no escaping that nor should we want to.

What is calling people "bitter", "petty", "obsessive" and "preachy" and generally sticking your head in the sand going to achieve?

Pot, kettle, black.

What is your continual preaching and bitterness going to achieve though?

In any 50/50 split, it would be hard to imagine a handshake and "well done" in the best of circumstances.

In the current circumstances, where the side that "won" have since gone on to make such a Horlicks of it, the only surprising thing is how calm a lot of people on the remain side have stayed. Jobs have been lost, and are being lost. Industries have been thrown into chaos. And there hasn't been a single benefit to show for it. Even today, it's obvious that nothing is settled.

"Dim" is expecting the result 50/50 vote to look like 100/0. It never was. It never will. And because the UK isn't a referendum driven country, both sides haven't any history to draw on to know how to proceed, unlike general elections.